Agnosticism and Death

[Unveiled Artist]

I am agnostic concerning things for which the evidence is nonexistent or extremely weak. That would include supernatural stuff like God and afterlife.
But not death, the evidence for physical death is overwhelming and has never been credibly questioned.

What the future will bring, in terms of increasing human lifespans remains to be seen. But death is inevitable.
Tom

In its very milloscule percentage is it taking for granted that we will die. Very milliscule percent we won't since can't predict the future only assuming for granted everything on the future will work as in the past?

Curious questions

 

[blü 2]

Hmm. Can one be agnostic about death as he is agnostic about god?

That's the subtle question at the heart of Pascal's Wager.

If there's a chance worth considering that there's a god, then you have a problem and you need to deal with it somehow. (I try to live a life of decency while being very confident that death is the end. So in this situation I like Gautama's solution (in the Kalama Sutta): live a life of decency and if there's a sentient postmortal existence and it's a just place then you'll be fine. To which I add, if it's not a just place then there was nothing more you could have done anyway.

And what if there's a chance worth considering that there's no god but there is sentient postmortal existence anyway? I can only suggest the same course as before.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's the subtle question at the heart of Pascal's Wager.

If there's a chance worth considering that there's a god, then you have a problem and you need to deal with it somehow. (I try to live a life of decency while being very confident that death is the end. So in this situation I like Gautama's solution (in the Kalama Sutta): live a life of decency and if there's a sentient postmortal existence and it's a just place then you'll be fine. To which I add, if it's not a just place then there was nothing more you could have done anyway.

And what if there's a chance worth considering that there's no god but there is sentient postmortal existence anyway? I can only suggest the same course as before.

I dont know what you mean in relation to the question.

Pretending god exists (for case in point only) do you think one can be agnostic about death as they are about an existing god?

 

[blü 2]

I dont know what you mean in relation to the question.

Pretending god exists (for case in point only) do you think one can be agnostic about death as they are about an existing god?

This is what I meant.

I think death is the end.

But if I thought there was an open question as to whether my personal sentient existence continued after death, then ─ whether God / gods exist or not ─ one possible strategy is, while I'm still here, to live a life of decency.

[That is, just as your question proposes, in this scenario I'm a nonbeliever about God / gods, but agnostic about life after death.]​

That way, if it turns out that sentient life indeed continues after death, then let's look at two major possibilities:

The regime under which postmortal folk continue their existence is A. a just regime, or B. not a just regime.

If it's a just regime, I'll be fine because I've led a decent life.

If it's not a just regime, well, no other strategy that occurs to me would have made me better off anyway.

 

[David T]

Hmm. Can one be agnostic about death as he is agnostic about god?

For example, I am generalizing on purpose, when an agnostic says nothing is know; nothing can be concluded as true one way or another, one hundred pecent, does that logic only involve god or everything in life?

Im not agnostic; so, I find it interesting in relations to god because I am an atheist (or technically gnostic about god), but my background is besides the point.

Everyone believes physical death is once hundred percent true. We base our facts on assumptions that everyone who got to a certain age, if not died for other causes, die of old age. Since we know they die, we will too.

But if you are agnostic, these things cant be said true either way. Can you really predict your future state based on 99.9 percent evidence that other people die? Do you know your condition that well to assume you will die as we believe so with supposed a hundred percent certainty?

Is an agnostic only agnostic on supernatural things or can he take that logic and apply it to all aspects of life, death included?

"Everyone believes physical death is once hundred percent true"

Believe.. . There is that word again so weird especially in application to the term death.

Christianity is a religion of death, that over 2,000 years has developed cultish nonsense about death. A bit too highly educated to make much sense of its own text.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Everyone believes physical death is once hundred percent true"

Believe.. . There is that word again so weird especially in application to the term death.

Christianity is a religion of death, that over 2,000 years has developed cultish nonsense about death. A bit too highly educated to make much sense of its own text.

I dont see where christianity relates to my question??

 

[David T]

I dont see where christianity relates to my question??

In culture "we believe" manifests into being fundemental in around 325 AD. Believe, not believe, agnostic in nature is irrelevant.

So in context to nature itself christianity becomes politically, officially irrelevant at the nicene creed which is irrelevant to its own basis or its own text.

Its like creating an official text to officially dictate how to read the text. A faux objective lens about the text. The nincene creed is cut and paste nonsense, starting with the intro "we believe". Very geeky and "scientific" btw. AKA 300AD. style. Laughable joke but a deeply influencial joke none the less.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

We can apply this question with mathematics. Like death, we know two and two is four. Thats a given. Yet, we take it for granted that it will always be four just because it was and is now. Its an extreme view of taking things for granted. While you may not think its possible for any methematic thing to change, think about the agnostic position. Do you know that much about life that you can judge whether the laws of physics, rather, will always be the way it is during our time period?

I don't think we have a disagreement here. As I said before, we cannot know anything about the physical world with certainty.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In culture "we believe" manifests into being fundemental in around 325 AD. Believe, not believe, agnostic in nature is irrelevant.

So in context to nature itself christianity becomes politically, officially irrelevant at the nicene creed which is irrelevant to its own basis or its own text.

Its like creating an official text to officially dictate how to read the text. A faux objective lens about the text. The nincene creed is cut and paste nonsense, starting with the intro "we believe". Very geeky and "scientific" btw. AKA 300AD. style. Laughable joke but a deeply influencial joke none the less.

Its not a christian question. How does this relate to what I asked?

 

[Stevicus]

Hmm. Can one be agnostic about death as he is agnostic about god?

For example, I am generalizing on purpose, when an agnostic says nothing is know; nothing can be concluded as true one way or another, one hundred pecent, does that logic only involve god or everything in life?

Im not agnostic; so, I find it interesting in relations to god because I am an atheist (or technically gnostic about god), but my background is besides the point.

Everyone believes physical death is once hundred percent true. We base our facts on assumptions that everyone who got to a certain age, if not died for other causes, die of old age. Since we know they die, we will too.

But if you are agnostic, these things cant be said true either way. Can you really predict your future state based on 99.9 percent evidence that other people die? Do you know your condition that well to assume you will die as we believe so with supposed a hundred percent certainty?

Is an agnostic only agnostic on supernatural things or can he take that logic and apply it to all aspects of life, death included?

I would say that I'm as agnostic about the idea of a "soul" as I am about the idea of a supernatural deity.

As for death, I know and accept that it happens. It happens to everyone. No heartbeat, no brain activity, no life at all. No evidence of a soul, either. The body slowly rots away.

I do recall a few days before my father died, he was in the hospital bed and said he saw a long-dead great uncle walking across the room. My father wasn't the kind of person to just make stuff up like that, but I didn't see anybody. I thought he might have been hallucinating or something, but it's hard to say.

I've heard quite a few people relating ghost stories, but who can say who saw what, without any verification or corroborating evidence.

 

[David T]

Its not a christian question. How does this relate to what I asked?

Believe is irellevant.... why treat it as rellevant its fantasy in context To the topic death. Why turn death into a fantasy "i believe"? I actually dont get why that intellectualizing nonsense is taken seriously. Too many books? too much college?, too much tv? Too much internet? All of it very christian today.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would say that I'm as agnostic about the idea of a "soul" as I am about the idea of a supernatural deity.

As for death, I know and accept that it happens. It happens to everyone. No heartbeat, no brain activity, no life at all. No evidence of a soul, either. The body slowly rots away.

I do recall a few days before my father died, he was in the hospital bed and said he saw a long-dead great uncle walking across the room. My father wasn't the kind of person to just make stuff up like that, but I didn't see anybody. I thought he might have been hallucinating or something, but it's hard to say.

I've heard quite a few people relating ghost stories, but who can say who saw what, without any verification or corroborating evidence.

Who knows, really. Ive had and do have my experiences with souls and such, but I never questioned what happens and where I would be after death. If anything, I never thought about the nature of death but the nature of life which involves both birth and death; more of our mortality rather than destination etc.

Since people are agnostic about god, Id assume they would be agnostic about every point in life. If we dont know, we dont know. So, with death (the fact we will die not about the afterlife), Id assume the same logic applies there sa well.

In other words, wouldnt logic in agosticism aply to everything not just god (or any supernatural for that matter).

But Id like to somehow prepare for my parents death. I honestly, after my grandmother and aunt, dont think I can come out of it. Even if my mind has some reason to understand it, the physiology of it would be hard to take.

 

[Willamena]

Hmm. Can one be agnostic about death as he is agnostic about god?

For example, I am generalizing on purpose, when an agnostic says nothing is know; nothing can be concluded as true one way or another, one hundred pecent, does that logic only involve god or everything in life?

Yes, it involves everything in life. When you commit to a logical rationalization, it will inform every aspect of your thinking.

Else, it wasn't logic.

Im not agnostic; so, I find it interesting in relations to god because I am an atheist (or technically gnostic about god), but my background is besides the point.

Everyone believes physical death is once hundred percent true.

We base our facts on assumptions that everyone who got to a certain age, if not died for other causes, die of old age. Since we know they die, we will too.

But if you are agnostic, these things cant be said true either way. Can you really predict your future state based on 99.9 percent evidence that other people die? Do you know your condition that well to assume you will die as we believe so with supposed a hundred percent certainty?​

Is an agnostic only agnostic on supernatural things or can he take that logic and apply it to all aspects of life, death included?

If you are agnostic, these things can't said true either way for a reason. You're ignoring the reason. Agnosticism is not about denying facts, or denying truth, it's about denying that we can say anything with certainty about the unknown. That's because of a firm belief that knowledge is a justified true belief.

 

[Willamena]

Absolute certainty on any topic is impossible but, on some topics, one might say "I'm certain" which should be taken as "I'm not going to be picky about using the word certainty." I'm certain I'll die.

And, I'm certain that the writers of the Bible were not divinely inspired and that the God they portrayed doesn't exist. However, for reasons too complex to explain here, I think there is pretty good possibility that a Loving Creator exists therefore I'd label myself agnostic on that score.

Are you absolutely certain that absolute certainty can't be declared? Because, otherwise this is meaningless.

 

[joe1776]

Are you absolutely certain that absolute certainty can't be declared? Because, otherwise this is meaningless.

Hold a pencil in the air over your desk and let go. I will probably fall but you can't be certain because it is possible that at the moment you let go some cataclysmic event might happen that will negate the force of gravity and the pencil will float.

But am I absolutely certain that absolute certainty can't be declared about anything? Of course not. I just can't think of one.

 

[Willamena]

Hold a pencil in the air over your desk and let go. I will probably fall but you can't be certain because it is possible that at the moment you let go some cataclysmic event might happen that will negate the force of gravity and the pencil will float.

But am I absolutely certain that absolute certainty can't be declared about anything? Of course not. I just can't think of one.

I am absolutely certain that inference (like the conclusion that the pencil will drop) exists.

 

[Sir Doom]

Hmm. Can one be agnostic about death as he is agnostic about god?

Not about my own death (though I have used that as a hypothetical before) but about mortality in general. I am not sure if we will ever overcome it, but I think we might. I couldn't begin to say how it would be nothing but science fiction to try. There are certain existential arguments that add the .000001% chance that I'm immortal and just don't know it but I don't seriously consider those outside the sake of argument.

For example, I am generalizing on purpose, when an agnostic says nothing is know; nothing can be concluded as true one way or another, one hundred pecent, does that logic only involve god or everything in life?

There are many things that are similar in my view, but death isn't really on the list. I can present a good argument but when push comes to shove I am convinced I will die some day. If I feel as healthy at 100 as I do now, perhaps I may gain some skepticism on this.

Im not agnostic; so, I find it interesting in relations to god because I am an atheist (or technically gnostic about god), but my background is besides the point.

Everyone believes physical death is once hundred percent true. We base our facts on assumptions that everyone who got to a certain age, if not died for other causes, die of old age. Since we know they die, we will too.

We also feel old. Our body starts rebelling.

But if you are agnostic, these things cant be said true either way. Can you really predict your future state based on 99.9 percent evidence that other people die? Do you know your condition that well to assume you will die as we believe so with supposed a hundred percent certainty?

You don't need 100% certainty to believe something. Especially when there aren't many alternatives.

Is an agnostic only agnostic on supernatural things or can he take that logic and apply it to all aspects of life, death included?

To a certain degree, one can apply it to anything and everything but I certainly don't. This is the essence of solipsism if I'm not mistaken. The idea that all of reality is merely a projection of, by and for your mind. You are the only true observer in reality and nothing exists outside the confines of your perception. In this lonely reality one could be said to be agnostic about literally everything.

I really don't use the term 'supernatural' as I expect that everything that does exist can be explained (eventually) through science. This includes God, the soul and the afterlife. I do understand your usage here, though so I'll roll with it.

It's really about answering questions without an answer with, "I don't know."

Inasmuch as I can't be agnostic about 1+1=2, I can't be agnostic about whether or not I will die, either. I will, because everything dies and I feel it coming even at 40. My body is breaking down. Wearing out. My pool of friends dwindles as accidents and disease and foul play claim them one by one. Immortality isn't really on the table. There is no reason to expect it. Some colossal medical breakthrough would have to happen and even then, I'm mostly broke so I'm not a likely candidate for something like that.

 

[joe1776]

I am absolutely certain that inference (like the conclusion that the pencil will drop) exists.

You're right. If we switch topics to existence and away from events like death, related to cause-and-effect many things are certain.

 

[columbus]

You don't need 100% certainty to believe something. Especially when there aren't many alternatives.

Pretty much this.
There have been billions of humans born and to the best of my knowledge not one has survived much past 100. The vast majority died much sooner than that. There's lots of evidence on the subject of physical death so agnosticism isn't an option for me.
God is completely different. There's almost no evidence on that subject, so agnosticism is the only option for me.
Tom