No, starting forever wars and trying to be an empire is what the grave mistake was.
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Afghan lives and livelihoods upended even more as US occupation ends
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
Are you convinced that most people wanted Donald Trump to steal the 2020 election against the will of the American electorate, because of the ease with which his brainwashed fanatical cultic followers invaded the Capitol?
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is very sad.
Incompetent intelligence assesments by the US-NATO forces forecasted the Taliban out of reach of Kabul for a month or so though they captured it in a few days. This has prevented most people from leaving Taliban controlled Afghanistan for safer shores in a timely manner with proper travel arrangements.
It was sad to see people clinging to departing aircraft in desperation and falling from it.
There are many liberal activists still in Afghanistan who are on the scanner of the taliban, and hopefully the international community and UN can work on bringing them out of Afghanistan safely to more secure environments.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Truly.....
We Brits couldn't, the Russians couldn't, and you couldn't......
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Exactly.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What does this has to do with the topic?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's a simple question that could have been answered in just one word, so why didn't you answer it?
You said this:
To which I asked,
Are you convinced that most people wanted Donald Trump to steal the 2020 election against the will of the American electorate, because of the ease with which his brainwashed fanatical cultic followers invaded the Capitol?
I think the question is pretty self-explanatory. If you think the ease with which evil people can overrun a country has to do with "most" citizens wanting that evil, and welcoming it, then do you believe that "most" Americans, likewise, wanted the violent, brainwashed cultic followers of the orange pseudo-messiah and his horde of sycophants invading the Capital with great ease, violently cutting a path through the police with weapons in hand, because America wanted that?
Then why do you get to say that true for Afghanistan? Americans do not want Trump, anymore than the Afganinis want the Taliban. Rather, it is their violence and the minority seeking power over the majority, in both cases, that is what is happening. Not welcoming them!
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I see. Your making comparisons.
Well Biden is still in office. Not really a take over.
It's a little hard to do a coup if one does not have an army first. ;0]
More directly I'm not convinced people wanted Trump to steal the election but I do think most wanted Trump to win.
Trump is a sore loser, not a traitor imv.
Considering how the army itself cut tail and departed, I'm pretty sure a significant portion of Afghans want the Taliban in power unlike your comparison.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The fact Biden remains the President, does not mean a failed coup attempt wasn't made. The minority tried to steal the election against the will of the American electorate who elected Biden. It doesn't matter if they were successful. They tried a coup attempt against the will of the majority.
The majority did not welcome them. Same thing in Afghanistan. They were not elected, and like Trump's cult followers, they use violence to overturn legitimate governments.
He tried to get that, but failed. He tried anyway. It was a coup attempt, from everything we are now learning he was doing behind the scenes leading up to it. Hopefully, the rule of law will be brought to bear upon him for his crimes against the United States of America and its people. We are a country of law and order, and he and all his co-conspirators need to be held accountable and brought to justice.
Start paying attention to what the commission to investigate January 6 exposes. It's clear already at this point, this was not just some hissy fit from a sore loser with a broken ego not wanting to accept reality. There was deliberate and calculated actions attempting to undermine American democracy and overturn the will of the people. This is what Trump actual did, as the evidence is now showing.
I think your view may change once you start learning the facts of what he actually did. I too at first didn't take it as more than a Trumpertantrum that inspired religious fanatics to believe his lies and attempt to kill both police and members of congress out of their devotion to their dear leader. But the evidence shows a picture far more calculated and intentional at play for many months, involving many co-conspirators.
Hard to believe, but not so hard either when you look at how depraved both Trump and his cultic followers are.
I'm not convinced it has to do with them welcoming them, as much as it had to do with them wanting to live to fight another day. Fighting a battle that you know you'll only just die and not be able to win, has more to do with survival, than it does welcoming some minority group of self-righteous religionists (Taliban cf. Trumpians). I do not believe Afghanis want the values and beliefs and practices of the Taliban, anymore than Americans want Trump and his cult in power.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Exactly, and no honest person with an IQ higher than a turnip could deny this. I watched for hours what took place on January 6th, including part of Trump's speech, so it's obviously very clear what he was up to and why, and this continued on through to January 20th whereas he demanded that the SoS' in Georgia and Arizona, who were and are Republicans, to "find votes".
And if Trump and his base are so certain that what we saw and heard was wrong, then why did they fight having a bipartisan commission of equal numbers to investigate this with open hearings. It's appalling how many Pubs, especially those on Congress, are all so willing to perpetuate the lie that Trump did no wrong, especially with so many of them being Evangelicals-- go figgur.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Actually, since the Taliban are now in control of all border crossings apart from Kabul airport, it is preventing people from leaving the country at all, except at the Taliban's sufferance.
And I really, genuinely hope I will be wrong on this for the sake of these people's lives, but by all accounts, it looks to me like these people will be left to their own devices by the world at large.
There is also the possibility that they didn't want the Taliban,
but that they just didn't want to fight the Taliban.
Consider...
For 20 years the Afghan military & the mighty USA failed
to defeat the Taliban. Now it's the Afghan military all alone.
It would be wise to just face reality & surrender with less
bloodshed spilled towards the inevitable result.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I don't believe that either. Afganinis have war in their blood. They are a lot of things i say about them, but I can't say they are cowardly. The whole country has arguably been in perpetual war for centuries.
An Afgan that dosent fight sounds like an oxymoron or a paradox.
I don't see them giving up that easily unless it was something arranged or expected. That's why I think the Afgan government is pro Taliban and willingly handed over the reign of the country.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's not even Islamic law they are following, in my opinion. No school for girls? No jobs for women? That is not Islamic. There is nothing in the Qur'an even about covering women's faces.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Yes, indeed. We imposed a government on them that they had no input on.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
That's true.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
To defend him, he did say we did some things that were wrong. Was it a puppet regime? They didn't get any input into what government was to installed there, we went there for political reasons, we made the regime more corrupt by the billions we poured in there. However, it wasn't a puppet regime, in my view. Many people there probably saw it that way though. That's one reason why they couldn't maintain their government against the Taliban.What reality are you living in? We just install puppet regimes, open up shop for corporations to exploit the situation and maintain troops there to remind of them of who is running the show. What do you think an occupation is? It's another form of imperialism. Now I see that establishment "liberals" are promoting "humanitarian imperialism" by running all these tear jerker stories about the people suffering under the Taliban, as if they gave a **** about their well-being while we were destroying their country for a few decades. I'm sure blowing those people away with missiles will alleviate their suffering! I mean, it didn't work before but let's try again?
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
There's no altruism involved. I'm not sure what Brick was implying there. But he's right that we could have done even worse.