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Advaitins and Hindus: Viveka Chudamani of Shankaracharya

atanu

Member
Premium Member
:) I do not know who is ignorant or not, but I believe that conciousness/awareness is a part of body, it is due to chemical reactions and electrical impulses, it arises with the body and dissipates with it. I do not describe Brahman as sat-chit-ananda. For me, Brahman is physical energy (heat, light, magnetism, electricity, etc., and now gravity too). Mass/substance/material is just a form of energy (E=mc squared).

... Yes, if I do not believe in God or soul, then there is no doubt that I will not believe in in rebirth or transference of karma to any next life, of which there is really none. What I seem to be to you is immaterial. I am an atheist advaitist Hindu. I do not even believe in creation, birth and death - since Brahman is changeless. These are only illusions, 'maya'. As my guru said:

"Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya, jeevo Brahmaiva na parah"
.

Hello Aupmanyav. So, Shankara is your Guru? But I see that Shankara's teachings and your beliefs clash head-on.

In Viveka Chudamani, wherefrom the advaitic "Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya, jeevo Brahmaiva na parah" (Brahman is the Truth. Jiva is none other than the Brahman) comes, its author Shri Shankara teaches about Brahman and about Atman. The 'Viveka' means the correct discrimination. The treatise teaches about the discrimination between atman and non-atman.

True, as a conclusion, Shankara reiterates, the teaching of Mandukya kArikA:

574. There is neither death nor birth, neither a bound nor a struggling soul, neither a seeker after Liberation nor a liberated one – this is the ultimate truth.

But there ends the similarity. The verse 574 above declares the param-arthika truth, the absolute truth. But Shankara is emphatic that the knowledge of the paramarthika is gained through proper discrimination of Atman and Non Atman (Self and Non Self). In this regards, Shankara's teachings about God, about Atman-Brahman, are summarised through passages of Viveka Chudamani.

About God: Shankara begins with a bow and prayer to God, as below.

1. I bow to Govinda, whose nature is Bliss Supreme, who is the Sadguru, who can be known only from the import of all Vedanta, and who is beyond the reach of speech and mind.

Then he clarifies that the Atman-Brahman is the Seer-Knower, of all objects of senses and is distinct from them. Brahman is defined as Existence-Knowledge-Bliss (Sat-Chit-Ananda). Brahman is defined as eternal essence of awareness of three states existence, namely: Waking, Dreaming, Sleeping. This eternal Seer-Knower and substratum of all knowing is never born and thus never dies.

Wherever Shankara teaches just the opposite of what Aup. would like us to believe, I have used red highlighted font below.

101. Blindness, weakness and sharpness are conditions of the eye, due merely to its fitness or defectiveness; so are deafness, dumbness, etc., of the ear and so forth – but never of the Atman, the Knower.

124. Now I am going to tell thee of the real nature of the supreme Self, realising which man is freed from bondage and attains Liberation.

125. There is the Absolute Entity, the eternal substratum of the consciousness of egoism, the witness of the three states, and distinct from the five sheaths or coverings:

126. Which knows everything that happens in the waking state, in dream and in profound sleep; which is aware of the presence or absence of the mind and its functions; and which is the background of the notion of egoism. – This is That.

127. Which Itself sees all, but which no one beholds, which illumines the intellect etc., but which they cannot illumine. – This is That.

130. By which everything from egoism down to the body, the sense-objects and pleasure etc., is known as palpably as a jar – for It is the essence of Eternal Knowledge !

134. It is neither born nor dies, It neither grows nor decays, nor does It undergo any change, being eternal. It does not cease to exist even when this body is destroyed, like the sky in a jar (after it is broken), for It is independent.

135. The Supreme Self, different from the Prakriti and its modifications, of the essence of Pure Knowledge, and Absolute, directly manifests this entire gross and subtle universe, in the waking and other states, as the substratum of the persistent sense of egoism, and manifests Itself as the Witness of the Buddhi, the determinative faculty.

154. This body of ours is the product of food and comprises the material sheath; it lives on food and dies without it; it is a mass of skin, flesh, blood, bones and filth, and can never be the eternally pure, self-existent Atman.

157. That the Atman as the abiding Reality is different from the body, its characteristics, its activities, its states, etc., of which It is the witness, is self-evident.

189. The self-effulgent Atman, which is Pure Knowledge, shines in the midst of the Pranas, within the heart. Though immutable, It becomes the agent and experiencer owing to Its superimposition, the knowledge sheath.

211. This self-effulgent Atman which is distinct from the five sheaths, the Witness of the three states, the Real, the Changeless, the Untainted, the everlasting Bliss – is to be realised by the wise man as his own Self.

216. This Atman is a self-cognised entity because It is cognised by Itself. Hence the individual soul is itself and directly the Supreme Brahman, and nothing else.

217. That which clearly manifests Itself in the states of wakefulness, dream and profound sleep; which is inwardly perceived in the mind in various forms as an unbroken series of egoistic impressions; which witnesses the egoism, the Buddhi, etc., which are of diverse forms and modifications; and which makes Itself felt as the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute; know thou this Atman, thy own Self, within thy heart.

220-222. Similarly, discarding the body, the Buddhi and the reflection of the Chit in it, and realising the Witness, the Self, the Knowledge Absolute, the cause of the manifestation of everything, which is hidden in the recesses of the Buddhi, is distinct from the gross and subtle, eternal, omnipresent, all-pervading and extremely subtle, and which has neither interior nor exterior and is identical with one self – fully realising this true nature of oneself, one becomes free from sin, taint, death and grief, and becomes the embodiment of Bliss. Illumined himself, he is afraid of none. For a seeker after Liberation there is no other way to the breaking of the bonds of transmigration than the realisation of the truth of one’s own Self.

225. Brahman is Existence, Knowledge, Infinity, pure, supreme, self-existent, eternal and indivisible Bliss, not different (in reality) from the individual soul, and devoid of interior or exterior. It is (ever) triumphant.

263. That beyond which there is nothing; which shines even above Maya, which again is superior to its effect, the universe; the inmost Self of all, free from differentiation; the Real Self, the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute; infinite and immutable – that Brahman art thou, meditate on this in thy mind.

290. Transferring the identification now rooted in the body to the Atman, the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute, and discarding the subtle body, be thou ever alone, independent.

291. That in which there is this reflection of the universe, as of a city in a mirror – that Brahman art thou; knowing this thou wilt attain the consummation of thy life.

292. That which is real and one’s own primeval Essence, that Knowledge and Bliss Absolute, the One without a second, which is beyond form and activity – attaining That one should cease to identify oneself with one’s false bodies, like an actor giving up his assumed mask.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
So, the Guru Shankara, the teacher of Advaita does not teach atheism or materialism. He prescribes a path of discrimination of the real (the Seer/Knower of intellect and senses and their objects) from unreal (the ego self-intellect-buddhi and the objects of senses, including the body).

He describes the Atman-Brahman as the Existence, essence of Intelligence, Bliss (sat-chit-ananda), Eternal, and Infinite. Worth noting is that Shankara defines Brahman/Param Atman as intrinsically Sat-Chit-Ananda repeatedly in Viveka Chudamani.

I do not understand why some avowed advaitins, who declare Shankara to be their Guru yet reject Sat-Chit-Ananda nature of Brahman and claim that Chit-Consciousness/awareness is a product of chemical reactions in brain.
.......

I am a believer of an all encompassing awareness and a Will that far surpasses us. I do not care what lies are wilfully being promoted and for what purpose, since all wilfull lies will be taken care of. Since, this forum is visited by people who have very little idea about Shankara and his teachings, I felt that I should create a thread recording actual teaching of Shankara from Viveka Chudamani. I cannot stop anyone from mis-representing Shankara's teachings. But at least a few readers will be cautious.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Buddha and Sankara are my gurus but I reserve the right to differ with them. I just state my views. If your views are different, it is perfectly OK with me. I believe a few things which you have written above, but differ on many others. Sankara clearly says (taking the first Sankara Sentence and the last, and translating medieval poetic English to the modern one):

"There is neither death nor birth, neither a bound nor a struggling soul, neither a seeker after liberation nor a liberated one .."
".. that Brahman are you, knowing this you will attain the consummation of your life. That which is real and one’s own primeval Essence, .. attaining that one should cease to identify oneself with one’s false bodies, like an actor giving up his assumed mask."


I know Brahman, I am that, I have given up the mask, I have nothing more to seek. You are a seeker, I am the sought. It will be sometime before you understand me. And, sure, you are a believer in an all-encompassing awareness, but I am not. I know awareness to be a property of body and mind which lasts till the body lasts, or, sometimes, leaves us even before that. :)
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
I know Brahman, I am that, I have given up the mask, I have nothing more to seek. You are a seeker, I am the sought. ... :)

Oh sure. But remember the individual that repeatedly says "I am an atheist advaitin"?

Ha. Ha.
 
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RamaRaksha

Active Member
Breaking bonds, running away to magic land of bliss - it's all about how "I" can be happy. Instead of focusing so much on God - a being we have never seen nor heard nor we know nothing about - why not focus on the here and now and frankly the here and now is hard - life is not magic - good things don't fall out of the sky and we all want the good things but the problem is that they have to be Earned - worked for, desired and even after a lot of hard work we may not get what we want. And so just like the jackal who says the grapes are sour, life is sour - so people give up - they think giving up desires will free them of this body - that is true - God will not force life on you but the after life won't be great either - one simply ceases to exist that's all. No magic land, no blissful place

At best one comes back as a rock - the rock is eternal, never gets sick, never suffers - it stays in eternal bliss

Fools give up their human life for the life of a rock
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
There is no knowledge/awareness element in the transitory/created. The Immortal Atman-Brahman alone is the Seer-Knower. All scriptures teach this and all teachers agree by this:

212. The disciple questioned: After these five sheaths have been eliminated as unreal, I find nothing, O Master, in this universe but a Void, the absence of everything. What entity is there left forsooth with which the wise knower of the Self should realise his identity.

213-214. The Guru answered: Thou has rightly said, O learned man ! Thou art clever indeed in discrimination. That by which all those modifications such as egoism as well as their subsequent absence (during deep sleep) are perceived, but which Itself is not perceived, know thou that Atman – the Knower – through the sharpest intellect.

215. That which is perceived by something else has for its witness the latter. When there is no agent to perceive a thing, we cannot speak of it as having been perceived at all.

216. This Atman is a self-cognised entity because It is cognised by Itself. Hence the individual soul is itself and directly the Supreme Brahman, and nothing else.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
...
I know Brahman, I am that, I have given up the mask, I have nothing more to seek. You are a seeker, I am the sought.

You claim to be non dual Brahman, but you see duality: the seeker (me) and the sought (a God Aupamanyav).

:) That is 'Vyavaharika'.

Very typical of you, possessing dodging skills of Maradona.

But yes, no doubt we are in Vyavarika and that is my point of posting. You cannot use the parmarthika knowledge as a mere slogan and give a damn to all other teachings of Shankara. Your beliefs and Shankara's teachings (regarding escaping from clutches of mAyA) have nothing in common.

BTW, this thread is meant for genuine seekers who may like to read what Shankara actually taught and then form their views.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Brahman is 'what exists', it is not a God. Paramarthika does not become an untruth in Vyavaharika. Parmarthika is 'sashvata'. True yesterday, true today and true tomorrow. True here, true there and true everywhere. Perhaps other people needed it and so Sankara gave various views. I do not need them. Sankara put all knowledge in just one line - (Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya ..). If any one differs from that, the person has not understood Sankara. You can keep reading books and getting confused.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
....Sankara put all knowledge in just one line - (Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya ..). If any one differs from that, the person has not understood Sankara. .....

Huh. You alone understand. All other teachers are just confused fools.

You also say:

:) I do not know who is ignorant or not, but I believe that conciousness/awareness is a part of body, it is due to chemical reactions and electrical impulses, it arises with the body and dissipates with it. I do not describe Brahman as sat-chit-ananda. For me, Brahman is physical energy (heat, light, magnetism, electricity, etc., and now gravity too). Mass/substance/material is just a form of energy (E=mc squared).

But Shankara says:

225. Brahman is Existence, Knowledge, Infinity, pure, supreme, self-existent, eternal and indivisible Bliss, not different (in reality) from the individual soul, and devoid of interior or exterior. It is (ever) triumphant.

In my view, you are a prevaricator. You can continue here with your misrepresentations because no one else knows of Shankara's teachings.
.........
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Well, I stated my position. I differ with 225. We do not know attributes of Brahman that well. That is a guess and an expansion. 'Neti, neti'.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Well, I stated my position. I differ with 225. We do not know attributes of Brahman that well. That is a guess and an expansion. 'Neti, neti'.

But you know Brahman very well. How odd. You declared Brahman to be electrical energy etc. Don't you remember?

Do you mean that Upanishadic seers and Shankara guessed regarding Brahman, when they described the intrinsic nature of Brahman to be Sat Chit Ananda?

OTOH, Shankara has already explained the result of Neti Neti in Viveka Chudamani:

212. The disciple questioned: After these five sheaths have been eliminated as unreal, I find nothing, O Master, in this universe but a Void, the absence of everything. What entity is there left forsooth with which the wise knower of the Self should realise his identity.

213-214. The Guru answered: Thou has rightly said, O learned man ! Thou art clever indeed in discrimination. That by which all those modifications such as egoism as well as their subsequent absence (during deep sleep) are perceived, but which Itself is not perceived, know thou that Atman – the Knower – through the sharpest intellect.

215. That which is perceived by something else has for its witness the latter. When there is no agent to perceive a thing, we cannot speak of it as having been perceived at all.

216. This Atman is a self-cognised entity because It is cognised by Itself. Hence the individual soul is itself and directly the Supreme Brahman, and nothing else
.

You do not even agree to the shruti definition of Brahman agreed by all Hindus. Yet you claim to be an advaitin and follower of Shankara. Either you do not know various inconsistencies in your stance or you are wilfully faking to be a follower of advaita and Shankara.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You declared Brahman to be electrical energy etc. Don't you remember?
What I believe IMO is the best guess possible. All things constituted by energy. I do not know if existence and non-existence is the same and the whether the universe is eternal or arose out of 'absolute nothing'. If you read my posts, you would realize that my position is not absolute and I am open to correction if science proves otherwise (scriptures can give ideas, like what Nasadiya says, but for me, they must be ratified by present-day science).
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
Hello Aupmanyav. So, Shankara is your Guru? But I see that Shankara's teachings and your beliefs clash head-on.

In Viveka Chudamani, wherefrom the advaitic "Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya, jeevo Brahmaiva na parah" (Brahman is the Truth. Jiva is none other than the Brahman) comes, its author Shri Shankara teaches about Brahman and about Atman. The 'Viveka' means the correct discrimination. The treatise teaches about the discrimination between atman and non-atman.

True, as a conclusion, Shankara reiterates, the teaching of Mandukya kArikA:

574. There is neither death nor birth, neither a bound nor a struggling soul, neither a seeker after Liberation nor a liberated one – this is the ultimate truth.

But there ends the similarity. The verse 574 above declares the param-arthika truth, the absolute truth. But Shankara is emphatic that the knowledge of the paramarthika is gained through proper discrimination of Atman and Non Atman (Self and Non Self). In this regards, Shankara's teachings about God, about Atman-Brahman, are summarised through passages of Viveka Chudamani.

About God: Shankara begins with a bow and prayer to God, as below.

1. I bow to Govinda, whose nature is Bliss Supreme, who is the Sadguru, who can be known only from the import of all Vedanta, and who is beyond the reach of speech and mind.

Then he clarifies that the Atman-Brahman is the Seer-Knower, of all objects of senses and is distinct from them. Brahman is defined as Existence-Knowledge-Bliss (Sat-Chit-Ananda). Brahman is defined as eternal essence of awareness of three states existence, namely: Waking, Dreaming, Sleeping. This eternal Seer-Knower and substratum of all knowing is never born and thus never dies.

Wherever Shankara teaches just the opposite of what Aup. would like us to believe, I have used red highlighted font below.

101. Blindness, weakness and sharpness are conditions of the eye, due merely to its fitness or defectiveness; so are deafness, dumbness, etc., of the ear and so forth – but never of the Atman, the Knower.

124. Now I am going to tell thee of the real nature of the supreme Self, realising which man is freed from bondage and attains Liberation.

125. There is the Absolute Entity, the eternal substratum of the consciousness of egoism, the witness of the three states, and distinct from the five sheaths or coverings:

126. Which knows everything that happens in the waking state, in dream and in profound sleep; which is aware of the presence or absence of the mind and its functions; and which is the background of the notion of egoism. – This is That.

127. Which Itself sees all, but which no one beholds, which illumines the intellect etc., but which they cannot illumine. – This is That.

130. By which everything from egoism down to the body, the sense-objects and pleasure etc., is known as palpably as a jar – for It is the essence of Eternal Knowledge !

134. It is neither born nor dies, It neither grows nor decays, nor does It undergo any change, being eternal. It does not cease to exist even when this body is destroyed, like the sky in a jar (after it is broken), for It is independent.

135. The Supreme Self, different from the Prakriti and its modifications, of the essence of Pure Knowledge, and Absolute, directly manifests this entire gross and subtle universe, in the waking and other states, as the substratum of the persistent sense of egoism, and manifests Itself as the Witness of the Buddhi, the determinative faculty.

154. This body of ours is the product of food and comprises the material sheath; it lives on food and dies without it; it is a mass of skin, flesh, blood, bones and filth, and can never be the eternally pure, self-existent Atman.

157. That the Atman as the abiding Reality is different from the body, its characteristics, its activities, its states, etc., of which It is the witness, is self-evident.

189. The self-effulgent Atman, which is Pure Knowledge, shines in the midst of the Pranas, within the heart. Though immutable, It becomes the agent and experiencer owing to Its superimposition, the knowledge sheath.

211. This self-effulgent Atman which is distinct from the five sheaths, the Witness of the three states, the Real, the Changeless, the Untainted, the everlasting Bliss – is to be realised by the wise man as his own Self.

216. This Atman is a self-cognised entity because It is cognised by Itself. Hence the individual soul is itself and directly the Supreme Brahman, and nothing else.

217. That which clearly manifests Itself in the states of wakefulness, dream and profound sleep; which is inwardly perceived in the mind in various forms as an unbroken series of egoistic impressions; which witnesses the egoism, the Buddhi, etc., which are of diverse forms and modifications; and which makes Itself felt as the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute; know thou this Atman, thy own Self, within thy heart.

220-222. Similarly, discarding the body, the Buddhi and the reflection of the Chit in it, and realising the Witness, the Self, the Knowledge Absolute, the cause of the manifestation of everything, which is hidden in the recesses of the Buddhi, is distinct from the gross and subtle, eternal, omnipresent, all-pervading and extremely subtle, and which has neither interior nor exterior and is identical with one self – fully realising this true nature of oneself, one becomes free from sin, taint, death and grief, and becomes the embodiment of Bliss. Illumined himself, he is afraid of none. For a seeker after Liberation there is no other way to the breaking of the bonds of transmigration than the realisation of the truth of one’s own Self.

225. Brahman is Existence, Knowledge, Infinity, pure, supreme, self-existent, eternal and indivisible Bliss, not different (in reality) from the individual soul, and devoid of interior or exterior. It is (ever) triumphant.

263. That beyond which there is nothing; which shines even above Maya, which again is superior to its effect, the universe; the inmost Self of all, free from differentiation; the Real Self, the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute; infinite and immutable – that Brahman art thou, meditate on this in thy mind.

290. Transferring the identification now rooted in the body to the Atman, the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute, and discarding the subtle body, be thou ever alone, independent.

291. That in which there is this reflection of the universe, as of a city in a mirror – that Brahman art thou; knowing this thou wilt attain the consummation of thy life.

292. That which is real and one’s own primeval Essence, that Knowledge and Bliss Absolute, the One without a second, which is beyond form and activity – attaining That one should cease to identify oneself with one’s false bodies, like an actor giving up his assumed mask.
I am not sure what you intend to gain by arguing with a self proclaimed atheist..Leave him to his karma....You cannot possibly gain something out of him and neither can he from you
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I am not sure what you intend to gain by arguing with a self proclaimed atheist..Leave him to his karma....You cannot possibly gain something out of him and neither can he from you

He claims to be a Shankara follower advaitin. I hope this thread will be a small record to show how badly he disregards Shankara and tenets of Hinduism.
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
He claims to be a Shankara follower advaitin. I hope this thread will be a small record to show how badly he disregards Shankara and tenets of Hinduism.
there are many like him and am thinking about you @shivsomashekhar who practices neo-advaita and not to mention many westerners.. I think you are the only one trying to understand Shankara Advaita as is...Good for you...Can you open a thread on advaita in DIR to make us understand basic teaching of Shankara's advaita
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
there are many like him and am thinking about you @shivsomashekhar who practices neo-advaita and not to mention many westerners.. I think you are the only one trying to understand Shankara Advaita as is...Good for you...Can you open a thread on advaita in DIR to make us understand basic teaching of Shankara's advaita

Do you even know what neo-Advaita is? Based on the other nonsense you have been posting, I am pretty sure you do not.

Before you make a fool of yourself, why don't you learn the basics of Advaita, neo-Advaita and then come back here and try to explain how Gaudapada's ajativada = neo-advaita?.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
there are many like him and am thinking about you @shivsomashekhar who practices neo-advaita and not to mention many westerners.. I think you are the only one trying to understand Shankara Advaita as is...Good for you...Can you open a thread on advaita in DIR to make us understand basic teaching of Shankara's advaita

No. No. Please. I have not seen shivosomasekhar ever contradicting any tenet of advaita darsana. Sorry, let us not be personal. I am solely concerned with Aup's rejection of brahman's nature being of knowledge.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
What I believe IMO is the best guess possible. All things constituted by energy. ..... I am open to correction if science proves otherwise (scriptures can give ideas, like what Nasadiya says, but for me, they must be ratified by present-day science).

..... intelligence depends on chemistry and electrical impulses. ...I do not believe in God or soul, then there is no doubt that I will not believe in in rebirth or transference of karma ..... .... I do not even believe in creation, birth and death - since Brahman is changeless. These are only illusions, 'maya'. As my guru said:

"Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya, jeevo Brahmaiva na parah"
.

On one hand, birth and death are illusions (mAyA). Shruti also, quoted by Shankara (your Guru), is at best guesses. On the other hand, amongst this mAyA -- illusion world, science and your grasp of it is perfect.
 
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