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Abstinence-only Sex Education

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that they're not worth voting for (tho I never would). I'm saying, look what happened in 2000 when Nader ran for the Green Party on the platform that the Dems and the GOP were the same. He siphoned off enough votes in key states to tip the scales to Bush.

Yes but people should still vote their concious, not their party. If the people who voted for Nader believed that was the right thing to do then I respect their choice. I don't have as much respect for someone who votes for a person they don't believe in just to keep someone else they don't believe in elected. We should encourage people to vote for what they believe in not for what they are against.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Yes but people should still vote their concious, not their party. If the people who voted for Nader believed that was the right thing to do then I respect their choice.
For the people who stood by their vote, even as the consequences became clear, I have some respect. For the many who cried that they had no idea this was going to happen, I have no respect.


I don't have as much respect for someone who votes for a person they don't believe in just to keep someone else they don't believe in elected. We should encourage people to vote for what they believe in not for what they are against.
I'm not talking about what Limbaugh encouraged people to do, to vote for Clinton in order to hurt Obama. I'm talking about making the strategic decisions to get the person in office who best fits one's values, with the understanding that it's rarely going to be everything you want. You can be noble and only vote for your ideal, but then you effectively disempower yourself to do anything in the real world.

That's why I say that I think many Americans are so sheltered that we don't realize that our elections have real consequences. I live comfortably enough that the difference between Bush and Gore (or Bush and Kerry) is small. Maybe I would pay a little less tax with one, or a little more with another. That might affect how many movies I see in a year or whether I buy that new computer. And the high gas prices now means I think twice about taking a trip. But regardless, I would still have my education, my job, still have health insurance, my home. If I only thought about the consequences to me and my family, I could afford to vote for a third-party candidate in a symbolic gesture. But for other people, the difference between Bush and Gore was the difference between losing their jobs, their pensions, home-foreclosures, being able to get to work, heating their homes, being able to control one's own body. The difference between whether or not they go to another country to either kill or be killed. In terms of global climate change, it's the difference between having to relocate because your home is now under water. (And no, I'm not being sensationalist; it's happening as we speak to people in the Artic, the Pacific Islands.)
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
For the people who stood by their vote, even as the consequences became clear, I have some respect. For the many who cried that they had no idea this was going to happen, I have no respect.

Yeah, folks like that are just silly.

I'm not talking about what Limbaugh encouraged people to do, to vote for Clinton in order to hurt Obama. I'm talking about making the strategic decisions to get the person in office who best fits one's values, with the understanding that it's rarely going to be everything you want. You can be noble and only vote for your ideal, but then you effectively disempower yourself to do anything in the real world

All very true. You're preaching to the choir. ;) We may not agree on what the actual consequences of electing each individual are but we totally agree on everything else. :D
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
It isn't just about those kinds of outlets, though. Teens are going to be sexually curious. And nothing, not even a rousing game of chess or football:p, is going to satisfy that curiosity other than sex, especially when sex seems like something forbidden to them.

Not so. This is the biggest myth going. Sexual curiosity is not a guarantee of sexual behavior. If a cat in heat walks into an alley with a male cat, you can reliably predict the outcome. There's a big difference with human beings. Humans can (and do) regularly decline the invitation. It's more difficult when the feelings are new and frequently overwhelming, but it's nowhere near impossible to train young people to roll with them.

Your idea sounds great and makes sense, but imo still not very realistic. Especially the all-boys, all-girls thing. Some of the biggest, pardon my French, sluts I knew went to an all-girls school. It only peaks the interest that much more.

Again, more mythmaking. Unisexual schools are only part of the program, not the whole of it, remember. No one innovation or measure is going to have much of an effect. But taken in combination, they can be (indeed, are) quite powerful.

No one knows the right tack, though. So...eh. I'm just going to promise to be candid with my kids and let them know I'm a source of accurate facts and inconsequential help.

Inconsequential? I doubt it. And if you're really that inconsequential, get help that will be consequential. But it's good to hear that you'll at least be involved and available with your kids. Not too many parents can say that.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Sexual curiosity is not a guarantee of sexual behavior.

Greetings Dunemeister, I have a question. Do you think abstinence only is the only thing that should be taught or are you saying it should be taught along side safe sex. Or are you saying it's a legitamate program that can be chosen instead of safe sex programs? Just want to clarify what your views are.

Thanks.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Greetings Dunemeister, I have a question. Do you think abstinence only is the only thing that should be taught or are you saying it should be taught along side safe sex. Or are you saying it's a legitamate program that can be chosen instead of safe sex programs? Just want to clarify what your views are.

Thanks.
I was wondering this myself.
 

Inky

Active Member
Hmm, I'm going to add my two bits. I agree with Dallas that honest conversation and ongoing support about sexual issues are important for teenagers whether they are sexually active or not, and I definitely agree that some high-schoolers have sex because they think they "should", not because they really want to. However, I think a big part of the problem with teen sex comes from areas that haven't been brought up yet on this thread. (Apologies if they did and I missed them!)

First off, high-schoolers are often at a point in their lives where they want to be more independent from their families. They want their own lives, schedules and relationships, and even if they have wonderful relationships with their parents, they don't necessarily want to talk about sex with them. I would recommend for any high school to have a counselor who's reasonably young and connected to youth culture and who knows how to deal with sexual topics, and for all the classes to meet her/him at least once and know that s/he's there to talk to. That way they'll have access to someone who knows their stuff but doesn't feel so much like an authority figure.

When I decided to start having sex (at age 18), I scheduled the doctor appointments, got a full physical and got on the Pill, all without my parents finding out. I felt totally comfortable asking my doctor questions about safety, but there was no way I was going to talk about that stuff with my mom, even though I loved her and was close to her in other ways. Later, when I'd been out of the house a while and we had a more adult-to-adult relationship, I was more comfortable talking about it with her. From what I've gathered from friends, this is pretty typical.

The next thing is that if you're going for abstinence-only, you really need a more convincing argument than "it's dangerous" or "you'll value yourself more". Most teens who hear these reasons will be surrounded by people who are having sex, talking about how fun it is, not getting pregnant, not getting diseases, and seeming to feel perfectly fine about themselves. The ones who do get diseases and have low self-esteem are not as likely to mention those things, so you get a sampler bias. (For the record, I'm fine with premarital sex but I think the high-school social life is pretty warped, so I'm ambivalent about teen sex.) Whether or not schools teach it, the students are going to figure out that the adults who have sex protect themselves with condoms and other forms of birth control, and they're going to figure out that the majority of unmarried adults have sex and most of them don't get pregnant, so the abstinence-only arguments aren't going to look that appealing.

I agree with Dunemeister's position to the extent that if they have a really good reason, high schoolers won't have sex. If every kid under the age of 17 got instant herpes, flu and acne attack whenever they had sex, they'd stop having sex, because it's not worth it. But as it stands now, not all of them are convinced it's not worth the calculated risk. (Edit: a few would still do it and get the herpes, flu and acne, but not very many.)

Finally, it is possible to have healthy, mature sexual relationships outside of marriage, but they need to start with a relationship that's healthy and mature as a whole. Some teenagers (high school age I mean) are capable of that sort of mature partnership, but I don't think most of them are, which is why I'm ambivalent about teen sex. Not really sure how to deal with this in school, though.

One more short thing--abstinence only programs should really stop focusing on loss of virginity. It sends the message that anyone who's had sex at least once, whether they have unprotected sex with strangers or safe sex with a trusted partner, is in the same boat so you may as well not bother protecting yourself.
 
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DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Inky..

I agree..if you cant have that type relationship/diolouge with your parents for whatever reason..Counselors should be available at schools..

I totally agree with the need for independence too..Its natural and its healthy..Kids need room and space to be their own person..I "gave" my son more freedoms when I could "sense" he was ready...and then I said.." I trust you" and "its your decision" and so on..And not just about sex..Driving..curfew...what he want to do next now hes out of highschool...

Of course I give my 02...But I tell him its his life not mine..

My husband on the other hand is more "conservative"..I mean in a sense he's still on his back for things like "clean your room"..."what are your plans"..Which is fine..but its like every single day..I "sense" he's going to run him off..I'de rather him stay and give him his space than him leave before he's ready just to get away from us...

Also kids that age still do crave "approval" from thier parents..So you find every opportunity to say.."Im proud of you"...or "Im impressed with you because..."...

I know I got a little off topic..But not really...Sex isn't "isolated"...Sure its one specific part of your childs life..But its thier whole being..Their total self you want to nurture..

Love

Dallas

P.S..Inky...I really respect and appreciate your post...
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Nine out of every ten married Americans had premarital sex. Abstinence is such a remarkably practical alternative to advocate in our culture.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
It is important to give our children all the facts and not just some of the facts. If our schools and parents don't educate our children about sex, sex will educate our children about sex.
 

rojse

RF Addict
Yes, but since that's not the case, there's no worries.

Go have a look at the statistics Napoleon presented in post 15. Abstinence only sex education is not helpful to those that go and have sex anyway, which is quite a large proportion of the young adult population. How is abstinence only education an education that young adults are physically and mentally equipped to use, when so many of them decide to have sex?
 

rojse

RF Addict
Well, that's the point. The warnings are either not issued or they're issued in a manner or in a context that renders them ineffective. Telling children simply not to have sex because they might get a STD is like telling them in a one-off that if they masturbate, their get hairy palms. There needs to be a more sustained, culturally comprehensive support for abstinence.

When I was shown quite graphic pictures from a medical book about sexually transmitted disease as a teenager, that was an eye opener, I can assure you.
 
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