Absence of good in atheism

[Wildswanderer]

What is this assumption about being “a law unto ourselves,” exactly? Do you think atheists don’t use self-evident and incorrigible logic the same as theists, that we just make up any rules we want to?

Do athiests have some universal rules that apply to all athiests about what is wrong and what isn't? Because I have never heard of the atheists ten commandments.
If not then I have to assume you just do what is right in your minds.

 

[Meow Mix]

Do athiests have some universal rules that apply to all athiests about what is wrong and what isn't? Because I have never heard of the atheists ten commandments.
If not then I have to assume you just do what is right in your minds.

I see, so you were talking about ethics and morals, not logic. Understood.

Well, there are some atheists that are moral realists, I am not one of those.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do athiests have some universal rules that apply to all athiests about what is wrong and what isn't? Because I have never heard of the atheists ten commandments.
If not then I have to assume you just do what is right in your minds.

Rules are only useful if you follow them.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Rules are only useful if you follow them.

Paul said something to the effect that the law existed to show us what sin is. Which is a pretty interesting statement, I think. Because people tend to believe they just somehow know right from wrong. But of course there's no universal standard among humans, so it ends up being everyone doing what is right in his own eyes.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Good Vs. Evil,
Truth Vs. Lie,
are religious terms.
Thus, an atheist has become free from these old traditional ways of thinking.

Atheist: "there are very Good atheists."

So, now we all agree, that there is Absolute Evil and Absolute Good in this world?

Atheist: "No, we don't."

So, there is no good in atheism.

Atheist: "Maybe try not to equivocate words like good and Absolute Good and try to have an honest dialogue."

I have the God given right to say anything if there are none of the absolutes. But there are absolutes. So, I stay by the "there is no good in atheism."

I am not atheist, but I know several that profess to be and they are pretty moral, decent people by all accounts I have access to. They seem good to me.

 

[Vinayaka]

Paul said something to the effect that the law existed to show us what sin is. Which is a pretty interesting statement, I think. Because people tend to believe they just somehow know right from wrong. But of course there's no universal standard among humans, so it ends up being everyone doing what is right in his own eyes.

Indeed. If 1000 bystanders were to watch and then vote on each action, rarely would the vote be 1000 - 0. The closest thing to a written moral code in my faith are the Yamas (don'ts) and Niyamas (dos) But they're guidelines, not rules. So much isn't cut and dry. Some idea about morality seem to be far more obvious that others.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't do self serving circular reasoning, I just tried to understand why @questfortruth created the OP in this way, and after a while I saw that what he said was correct "absence of good in atheism", because atheism ONLY means "lack of belief in God"

Your responses are confusing. There is no "absence of good in atheism."

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do athiests have some universal rules that apply to all athiests about what is wrong and what isn't? Because I have never heard of the atheists ten commandments.
If not then I have to assume you just do what is right in your minds.

Do Christians have such universal rules? Do they (ALL) obey them? I mean, really, look at North America and Europe and tell me that all Christians "remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

And by the way, which "Ten Commandments" do you mean? There are 3 versions in the Bible, and only one of them (one that no Christian even knows about) is actually referred to -- in the Bible -- as "the Ten Commandments." (You'll find those actual words in Exodus 34:10 verse 27.)

The New Stone Tablets
34 The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.”

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the Lord had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”

10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 “Do not make any idols.

18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.

25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

 

[firedragon]

What made Pope Pius IX kidnap a Jewish boy,

The pope.

Stalin and Mao were not acting out of religious piety

Of course not. Who said they were? Thats the exact point to make.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The pope.

This is a terribly obvious evasion of the question "What made Pope Pius IX kidnap a Jewish boy?" in this context.

 

[firedragon]

This is a terribly obvious evasion of the question "What made Pope Pius IX kidnap a Jewish boy?"

The pope. What else? Are you gonna blame it on Christianity itself? Or is that what you wish me to do?

Well. Since its an unsophisticated thought, I won't.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Good Vs. Evil,
Truth Vs. Lie,
are religious terms.
Thus, an atheist has become free from these old traditional ways of thinking.

Good versus evil is a religious term? Truth versus lie is a religious term?

If I said to you 'I'm a ten foot tall kangaroo' it kinda sounds like a lie, regardless of whether you're religious, right?
How do you account for religious atheists in this little scenario anyway? Or you just equate religion and theism?

Atheist: "there are very Good atheists."

So, now we all agree, that there is Absolute Evil and Absolute Good in this world?

Atheist: "No, we don't."

So, there is no good in atheism.

Atheist: "Maybe try not to equivocate words like good and Absolute Good and try to have an honest dialogue."

It's a fair point your hypothetical atheist is making. You seem to be assuming there is no subjectivity possible, and things can only be objectively true/lie, or objectively good/evil. That flies in the face of everything I've ever seen.

I have the God given right to say anything if there are none of the absolutes. But there are absolutes. So, I stay by the "there is no good in atheism."

Just seems like you're saying 'You can say what you want.'
So cool. Go for it. For what it's worth, I don't think there is any good in atheism either. Just a lack of bad.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Atheists might become free from old traditional ways of thinking, however that doesn't indicate an "absence of good."

If you looked at atheism...in and of itself...wouldn't you agree it has an 'absence of good'?
Much like a turnip.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Also, @questfortruth, putting out another's light doesn't make yours burn any brighter.

Ooooh...I like that. Useful in many contexts.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Good Vs. Evil,
Truth Vs. Lie,
are religious terms.
Thus, an atheist has become free from these old traditional ways of thinking.

Atheist: "there are very Good atheists."

So, now we all agree, that there is Absolute Evil and Absolute Good in this world?

Atheist: "No, we don't."

So, there is no good in atheism.

Atheist: "Maybe try not to equivocate words like good and Absolute Good and try to have an honest dialogue."

I have the God given right to say anything if there are none of the absolutes. But there are absolutes. So, I stay by the "there is no good in atheism."

Once again, you fail at your first assumption. First you need to demonstrate that "Good Vs. Evil,
Truth Vs. Lie,
are religious terms."

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Terrible analogy. The belief in God over the millennia has lead to immense evil and violence,

I'm confused. How does that lend any credence to the concept of atheism holding any consideration of good or evil?

 

[Stevicus]

If you looked at atheism...in and of itself...wouldn't you agree it has an 'absence of good'?
Much like a turnip.

Well, yes. I would say there is an absence of good and an absence of evil, although the term "absence of good" seems an odd way to express something.

As for turnips, I'm not sure. However, it appears that there are some good things about turnips: Turnips: Health benefits, nutrition, and dietary tips (medicalnewstoday.com)

Turnips help relieve intestinal problems, lower blood pressure, reduce cancer risk, and aid in weight loss and digestion. Atheism doesn't do that.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What is this assumption about being “a law unto ourselves,” exactly? Do you think atheists don’t use self-evident and incorrigible logic the same as theists, that we just make up any rules we want to?

From a certain point of view, a lack of God (or some other external source) does mean humans need to become a law unto themselves. If we all decided that robbery was fine, and murder was acceptable, then robbery is fine and murder is acceptable. No-one else is going to tell us this is wrong.

It just completely ignores how these type of decisions are actually made, and how human social structures work. It assumes that providing ACTUAL free will to people results in complete anarchy, in it's most negative connotation.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, yes. I would say there is an absence of good and an absence of evil, although the term "absence of good" seems an odd way to express something.

Atheism is kinda odd. It doesn't state anything in a positive fashion. It states an absence. That carries over into anything else you might want to say about it. But if I rewrite it slightly for legibility, all I'm saying is that atheism is neither good nor bad, funny nor serious, sexy nor...well...let's face it, atheism is a little sexy.
*strikes a pose*

As for turnips, I'm not sure. However, it appears that there are some good things about turnips: Turnips: Health benefits, nutrition, and dietary tips (medicalnewstoday.com)

Turnips help relieve intestinal problems, lower blood pressure, reduce cancer risk, and aid in weight loss and digestion. Atheism doesn't do that.

This is a VERY good point. Atheist soup has no nutritional value at all. But it's not bitter.

 

[Meow Mix]

From a certain point of view, a lack of God (or some other external source) does mean humans need to become a law unto themselves. If we all decided that robbery was fine, and murder was acceptable, then robbery is fine and murder is acceptable. No-one else is going to tell us this is wrong.

It just completely ignores how these type of decisions are actually made, and how human social structures work. It assumes that providing ACTUAL free will to people results in complete anarchy, in it's most negative connotation.

Yeah. I agree with the part about how it ignores how these types of decisions are made. We have values that are formed by some combination of nature and nurture. Evolutionary history has given advantages to altruism and empathy, which is likely why we see many humans have values at least partially based in these; even outside of cultural considerations (or maybe more aptly, why these are prevalent across cultures). Of course individuals can differ. But I think this state of affairs describes the world that we see.

The belief that a lack of objective moral truths would cause people to just become hedonistic monsters is the real problem. I'm not a moral realist, but I have very strong values (in that they very strongly influence my behavior). I don't refrain from stealing or hurting people out of fear of retribution or consequences, I don't steal or hurt people because I don't want to. I value altruism, I value dignity, and whether or not moral truths would exist has nothing to do with me valuing these things. So obviously the belief that the absence of moral truths would necessarily lead to selfish hedonism is false.