• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Abrogation in the Quran

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
This is a challenge to any Muslim or Non-Muslim who wishes to prove the Quran have verses that are abrogated. Provide any two verses which contradict and provide any support to this theory of abrogation.

I believe this to be innovation as the Holy Prophet (saw) never taught abrogation, the Quran never states itself to be abrogated, rather on the contrary to be free from error. So please attempt to prove me wrong and if you succeed I will change my views.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Well there are cultural irrelevancies in ahadith but this does not come from the Qur'an of course.

Another issue that is int he Qur'an on one hand is Surat Al-Baqarah ayat 34 "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers."

Surat al-Khaf "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust."


Shaytaan/Iblis is either a jinn or an angel. Does this not call for naskh
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Well there are cultural irrelevancies in ahadith but this does not come from the Qur'an of course.

Another issue that is int he Qur'an on one hand is Surat Al-Baqarah ayat 34 "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers."

Surat al-Khaf "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust."


Shaytaan/Iblis is either a jinn or an angel. Does this not call for naskh

I believe there is no dispute among Muslims in that Iblis is not an Angel, the idea of fallen Angel is that of modern Christianity that is often confused. Islam doesn't teach that an Angel can commit bad deeds. An Angel as the Quran says had to be obedient having no option. I will paste below a quote from the Holy Quran proving that Angels are ever submissive to God.

[66:7] O ye who believe! save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones, over which are appointed angels, stern and severe, who disobey not Allah in what He commands them and do as they are commanded.

Before I address whether he was a Jinn I must once again point out that the Naksh and Munsook are only present in Islam today because of the loss of spirituality. Most Muslims today have left the Quran and only read it from the surface doing mouth worship towards. So now I will clarify the most common misunderstanding in trying to understand Jinn, a term that has evaded modern Muslims leading to birth of many fairy tales. I will quote below a passage from the book "Religion Rationality Knowledge and Truth" written by Hadrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (ra) the fourth successor to the Promised Messiah (as).

Arabic lexicon mentions the following as the possible meanings of the word jinn. It literally means anything which has the connotation of concealment, invisibility, seclusion and remoteness. It also has the connotation of thick shades and dark shadows. That is why the word 'jannah' (from the same root word) is employed by the Quran to denote paradise, which would be full of thick, heavily shaded gardens. The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye, could well be described by this word. The Jinn

Hence Shaytan and Iblis can both be Jinn, and Angels by nature are Jinn. It is because Jinn is not a specific being, technically speaking any being that secludes from our eyes are also Jinn.

A clarification is also needed on the difference between Iblis and Shaytan. The word Shaytan is means something that is not good for you. For example the Holy Prophet (saw) said to cover open food as Shaytan will enter, he also said to not wipe your behinds with bones and lumps of dung as Jinn feast on them. In these instances it refers to microorganisms that are not good for us, something we better understand today. There could be no more suitable term to use in those times to describe microorganisms that are not visible to the naked eye.

Moving on to Iblis, this is a specific person who cause Adam (as) great harm. Whenever the story of Adam (as) is related specific mention is made of Iblis, which shows it is a particular person. He was in attribute Shaytan, as he took upon himself evil as his attribute, the way we may call a person a devil due to their tendency to engage in evil. But the name Iblis is for a specific human being, he can also be described as Jinn in the sense of being secluded or chieftain.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I believe there is no dispute among Muslims in that Iblis is not an Angel, the idea of fallen Angel is that of modern Christianity that is often confused. Islam doesn't teach that an Angel can commit bad deeds. An Angel as the Quran says had to be obedient having no option. I will paste below a quote from the Holy Quran proving that Angels are ever submissive to God.



Before I address whether he was a Jinn I must once again point out that the Naksh and Munsook are only present in Islam today because of the loss of spirituality. Most Muslims today have left the Quran and only read it from the surface doing mouth worship towards. So now I will clarify the most common misunderstanding in trying to understand Jinn, a term that has evaded modern Muslims leading to birth of many fairy tales. I will quote below a passage from the book "Religion Rationality Knowledge and Truth" written by Hadrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (ra) the fourth successor to the Promised Messiah (as).



Hence Shaytan and Iblis can both be Jinn, and Angels by nature are Jinn. It is because Jinn is not a specific being, technically speaking any being that secludes from our eyes are also Jinn.

A clarification is also needed on the difference between Iblis and Shaytan. The word Shaytan is means something that is not good for you. For example the Holy Prophet (saw) said to cover open food as Shaytan will enter, he also said to not wipe your behinds with bones and lumps of dung as Jinn feast on them. In these instances it refers to microorganisms that are not good for us, something we better understand today. There could be no more suitable term to use in those times to describe microorganisms that are not visible to the naked eye.

Moving on to Iblis, this is a specific person who cause Adam (as) great harm. Whenever the story of Adam (as) is related specific mention is made of Iblis, which shows it is a particular person. He was in attribute Shaytan, as he took upon himself evil as his attribute, the way we may call a person a devil due to their tendency to engage in evil. But the name Iblis is for a specific human being, he can also be described as Jinn in the sense of being secluded or chieftain.

Ahmaddis are truly the greatest out of the Muslims and I do not even mean this as sarcasm. I once views Ahmadiyyah as a cult, nor I view it as a logical understanding of the Qur'an and Islam. I would have never thought I would appreciate Ahmadis so much.
Even in the Bible the usage of "unfamiliar spirits" occurs as a vague term but in all of my years have I never heard of this etymology for jinn. I have never had many chances to find Muslims who offer highly rational claims about the errors and contradictions many see int he Qur'an
I now regret not being an Ahmadi Muslim. :D

I humbly acknowledge defeat on this issue :namaste
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Ahmaddis are truly the greatest out of the Muslims and I do not even mean this as sarcasm. I once views Ahmadiyyah as a cult, nor I view it as a logical understanding of the Qur'an and Islam. I would have never thought I would appreciate Ahmadis so much.
Even in the Bible the usage of "unfamiliar spirits" occurs as a vague term but in all of my years have I never heard of this etymology for jinn. I have never had many chances to find Muslims who offer highly rational claims about the errors and contradictions many see int he Qur'an
I now regret not being an Ahmadi Muslim. :D

I humbly acknowledge defeat on this issue :namaste

Thank you for your kind comments, greatly appreciate your feedback. Feel free to question any other concerns you have with the Holy Quran.

"God would not give us brains, and then give us Holy Books to contradict them." - Ibn Rushd
 

ignition

Active Member
This is a challenge to any Muslim or Non-Muslim who wishes to prove the Quran have verses that are abrogated. Provide any two verses which contradict and provide any support to this theory of abrogation.
Well, there's a verse right here which states that there is abrogation in the Qur'an:

(2/106) Whatever a Verse do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

And if you're interested in abrogated verses in the Qur'an here is an example:

(8/65) O Prophet! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundred, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are people who do not understand.

That verse was abrogated by...

(8/66) Now Allah has lightened your (task), for He knows that there is weakness in you. So if there are of you a hundred steadfast persons, they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand of you, they shall overcome two thousand with the Leave of Allah. And Allah is with the patient.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
"God would not give us brains, and then give us Holy Books to contradict them." - Ibn Rushd

Averroes was a devout heretic(Zindiq) and was a secularist. He had a strong dislike towards religion and found no need to take the Qur'an even remotely serious. I truly admire him honestly for his liking and disliking of Islam
 
Last edited:

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Well, there's a verse right here which states that there is abrogation in the Qur'an:

(2/106) Whatever a Verse do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

This verse does not state that there is abrogation in the Quran. There are several important things missing here:
1. There is nothing in the verse that even seems to suggest that the verses being spoken of are from the Quran.

2. The context of the verse shows that it is not addresses to Muslims but rather quite clearly to People of the Book who are jealous of what Allah has sent down to the Muslims.

3. An interpretation that this verse suggests that the Quran has abrogation would directly contradict with the following verses:

[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,

[4:83] Will they not, then, meditate upon the Qur’an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement.

4. The word ayat doesn't only mean verses of scriptures. It is also used in the Holy Quran for the signs of God.l

A perfect Book cannot contain contradictions and have abrogated verses. A book with abrogation will be full of doubt as to questioning of whether any verse is abrogated.

5. There is no authentic saying of the Holy Prophet (saw) that supports abrogation on the contrary there are clear sayings that state that we should follow the Quran completely in whole.


And if you're interested in abrogated verses in the Qur'an here is an example:

(8/65) O Prophet! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundred, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are people who do not understand.

That verse was abrogated by...

(8/66) Now Allah has lightened your (task), for He knows that there is weakness in you. So if there are of you a hundred steadfast persons, they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand of you, they shall overcome two thousand with the Leave of Allah. And Allah is with the patient.

Most Non-Ahmadi Muslim scholars find such verses to be abrogated because they find contradictions due to their lack of knowledge and understanding. Rather than admitting self-defeat they find comfort in contradicting clear verses of the Holy Quran that state this book is clear and without contradiction. For example in the verses above Allah has commanded that any group of 20 or more people will be obligated to fight an enemy that is ten times their size and they cannot flee. In the later verse Allah has reduced their burden due to their weakness in faith that will later strengthen. As such their burden is reduced and they are only obliged to fight if they have a group of 100 or more and the enemy is up to twice their size.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
There are some examples that shows changes in Laws and ordinances.

For example, in the beginning of Islam, drinking wine was not completely prohibited, but later it was completely prohibited.
The Place of Qiblah was also modified. In the begining Muslims were saying their prayer toward Israel, but later Muhammad changed it.
According to Quran, The Jews were to follow the Law of Sabbath, but Muslims do not have to.
The Jews had a different restrictions on diet than Muslims. (Camels versus pork)
Baptism was part of Chritstian Laws. Moslems do not have that.
And many many more
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
There are some examples that shows changes in Laws and ordinances.

For example, in the beginning of Islam, drinking wine was not completely prohibited, but later it was completely prohibited.
The Place of Qiblah was also modified. In the begining Muslims were saying their prayer toward Israel, but later Muhammad changed it.
According to Quran, The Jews were to follow the Law of Sabbath, but Muslims do not have to.
The Jews had a different restrictions on diet than Muslims. (Camels versus pork)
Baptism was part of Chritstian Laws. Moslems do not have that.
And many many more

If this is a response to the challenge please state any two verses of the Holy Quran that contradict and state how you believe the later to be abrogated by the former.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
If this is a response to the challenge please state any two verses of the Holy Quran that contradict and state how you believe the later to be abrogated by the former.

I wouldn't call it contradictions. I am saying that God's Laws and ordinances comes in accordance with the requirements of the Age people live in, and that He has in fact changed many of the Laws overtime.
Just a question. Do you believe that God asked Jews to follow the Law of Sabbath? Was the Law of Sabbath divinely ordained?
Didn't Muhammad change the direction of Qiblah?
 
Last edited:

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I wouldn't call it contradictions. I am saying that God's Laws and ordinances comes in accordance with the requirements of the Age people live in, and that He has in fact changed many of the Laws overtime.
Just a question. Do you believe that God asked Jews to follow the Law of Sabbath? Was the Law of Sabbath divinely ordained?
Didn't Muhammad change the direction of Qiblah?

You allege that Holy Prophet (saw) changed the Qibla. It is not Prophets but Allah who changes Shariah. I am unclear on the point you are trying to make here so please cite the verses and raise your point.

I agree that past Shariah had portions abrogated such as Sabbath observed by the Jews.

To remain on topic I am only interested to discuss topic relating to abrogation of Islamic Shariah and or Quranic verses. All arguments must be presented from the Holy Quran.

If you allege Quranic verses are abrogated I will refute such misunderstandings.

If you allege Islamic Sharia can be abrogated based on the Quran I will refute such misunderstandings.
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You allege that Holy Prophet (saw) changed the Qibla. It is not Prophets but Allah who changes Shariah. I am unclear on the point you are trying to make here so please cite the verses and raise your point.
Ok, Allah changed Qiblah. Is not Qiblah part of Sharia Law of Islam?
I mean, Allah in the beginning of Revelation of Quran, had ordained a different Qiblah, as Muhammad was saying His prayers toward it, but a little later He changed the direction of Qiblah. Is not this, a change in Shariah of Islam?
Or in the beginning, drinking wine was not completely prohibited in Quran, but later it was completely prohibited. So, of course God may change His Laws within the same revelation.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Ok, Allah changed Qiblah. Is not Qiblah part of Sharia Law of Islam?
I mean, Allah in the beginning of Revelation of Quran, had ordained a different Qiblah, as Muhammad was saying His prayers toward it, but a little later He changed the direction of Qiblah. Is not this, a change in Shariah of Islam?
Or in the beginning, drinking wine was not completely prohibited in Quran, but later it was completely prohibited. So, of course God may change His Laws within the same revelation.

Holy Prophet (saw) was sent to establish Islamic Sharia. While the Sharia of Islam was being revealed the Muslims followed the Sharia of Judaism as brought by Moses (as). A Sharia is not established in one day but gradually. If it were to be established in one day majority of the Prophet's followers would be severely punished for heinous crimes that have become everyday practice.

It is in the practice of the Holy Quran to not abruptly give a new commandment that mankind will find hard to follow. The prohibition of drinking is an excellent example of how under the divine wisdom of Allah (swt) this prohibition was established by the Holy Quran. The Arabs had made drinking such an established practice that they could not see any vice in it. The Holy Quran first gives arguments in favor of a forthcoming commandment and answers any objections that may arise. Through this the hardship of following such a commandment is reduced.

One of the proof that the Quran does not contain any abrogation is the fact that it doesn't contain any commandments that were temporal in nature. You stated the changing of the Qibla, that is an excellent example. The only commandment contained in the Quran is the appointed of the Qibla to the Kaaba.

The incidents you state are not abrogation of Sharia, when Sharia has not yet been fully established how can you begin abrogating it. There were intermediate stages in establishment of Sharia. The changing of the Qibla was also deeper purpose of reducing hardship for Jews & Christian converts when the Qibla was at the temple of Jerusalem and reducing hardship for Pagan converts when the Qibla was at Kaaba. By the changing of the Qibla it also tested their faith and established that the importance is in unity, as Allah (swt) is everywhere.
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
Concept of abrogation of Quranic verses is false. Here is the verse that is used to support the abrogation argument:

[Qur'an 2:107] "Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?"

Some scholars say this refers to the Quranic verses. But that is not true simply by looking at the verse before:

[Qur'an 2:106] "They who disbelieve from among the People of the Book, or from among those who associate gods with Allah, desire not that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord; but Allah chooses for His mercy whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is of exceeding bounty."

Clearly then the verse 107 refers to the earlier books and how Quranic verses abrogate the earlier books. On the other hand it is clearly written:

[Qur'an 15:10] "Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian."
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Concept of abrogation of Quranic verses is false. Here is the verse that is used to support the abrogation argument:

[Qur'an 2:107] "Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?"

Some scholars say this refers to the Quranic verses. But that is not true simply by looking at the verse before:

[Qur'an 2:106] "They who disbelieve from among the People of the Book, or from among those who associate gods with Allah, desire not that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord; but Allah chooses for His mercy whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is of exceeding bounty."

Clearly then the verse 107 refers to the earlier books and how Quranic verses abrogate the earlier books. On the other hand it is clearly written:

[Qur'an 15:10] "Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian."

what about these verses:

"We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed). Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book." Quran 13:38-39

I think the verse says, God can abrogate the whole Laws of Quran if He pleases.
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
He could yes. But what He plans to do, what He would do, is highlighted in [15:10] in His own words.

[Qur'an 15:10] "Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian."
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
He could yes. But what He plans to do, what He would do, is highlighted in [15:10] in His own words.

[Qur'an 15:10] "Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian."

By the way the verse is not nessarily specificly talking about Quran, but could be the Message of God which is always reminded. I think there is a difference between 'Protecting' and 'not Abrogating'.
Protection can be in a sense that this Book or Message would not be lost or corrupted by human beings, but not in a sense that God Himslef would not abrogate any of it and replace it with a new Law according to Requirements of the Age. Another possibile interpretation can be, God always reminds same Message by sending Messengers so to renew and remind the Essense of Religion, and therefore protecting it from being forgotten or lost or corrupted.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
By the way the verse is not nessarily specificly talking about Quran, but could be the Message of God which is always reminded. I think there is a difference between 'Protecting' and 'not Abrogating'.
Protection can be in a sense that this Book or Message would not be lost or corrupted by human beings, but not in a sense that God Himslef would not abrogate any of it and replace it with a new Law according to Requirements of the Age. Another possibile interpretation can be, God always reminds same Message by sending Messengers so to renew and remind the Essense of Religion, and therefore protecting it from being forgotten or lost or corrupted.

Can you support possibility of abrogation of the Quran?

As many verses are contrary to it. Also proof that Quran does not need to be abrogated is within the same verse people ignorantly state to be in accordance with their abrogation theory:

[Qur'an 2:107] "Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?"

According to the Holy Quran prior scriptures were abrogated and forgotten because they were time-limited. The distinction is that Quran was protected in text because it wasn't time limited, hence it is stated to be "perfected". This shows that Religion evolves, the central theme stays the same but just as mankind evolved religion evolved. But such evolution has a peak before its fall, that peak is Islam. After Islam will only follow the end of this generation when they finally go astray from this message post acceptance.

Moreover, the message of the Quran is protected through Mujjadids in each century, in each century God raises Imams. Which is why Quran is not only protected in physical form but protected against distortion.
 
Top