1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Abrahamics only: The Nephilim

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by savagewind, Oct 19, 2012.

  1. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I have no idea. Are you saying it is me?
     
  2. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    11,838
    Ratings:
    +4,702
    Religion:
    ☿ Mercuræn Mahayana Buddhist & Pastafarian
    Not at all. There is nothing wrong with your observations, either.
     
  3. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    627
    Ratings:
    +64
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    crossfire makes good points about people being in "various states of growth."
    This is why that same chapter in Matthew also says....
    "Don’t condemn others, and God won’t condemn you. 2 God will be as hard on you as you are on others! He will treat you exactly as you treat them. 3 You can see the speck in your friend’s eye, but you don’t notice the log in your own eye. 4 How can you say, “My friend, let me take the speck out of your eye,” when you don’t see the log in your own eye? 5 You’re nothing but show-offs! First, take the log out of your own eye. Then you can see how to take the speck out of your friend’s eye."---Matthew 7:1-5
    7 Ask, and you will receive. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 Everyone who asks will receive. Everyone who searches will find. And the door will be opened for everyone who knocks. 9 Would any of you give your hungry child a stone, if the child asked for some bread? 10 Would you give your child a snake if the child asked for a fish? 11 As bad as you are, you still know how to give good gifts to your children. But your heavenly Father is even more ready to give good things to people who ask.---Matthew 7:7-11
     
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Good! Thank you. There is a scripture I wondered about Revelation 22:11. It sounds like The Lord commands some people to remain as they are and NOT to seek righteousness. What you said about everyone being at different states of spirituality [for Yahweh] brought me back there. I have come to realize that Revelation 22:11 might mean a caution not to fear about who I think should be further ahead but is not. To be minding my own business. It does not mean they need to stay that way according to the Word of God. It means let them be. We must all find our own way I think. The anti-christ are they that would find salvation FOR you.
     
  5. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    11,838
    Ratings:
    +4,702
    Religion:
    ☿ Mercuræn Mahayana Buddhist & Pastafarian
    You can't beat understanding into anyone, especially against their will. When they are hungry for understanding they will look for it. "Keep on knocking, and the door (of understanding) will be opened for you."
     
  6. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    627
    Ratings:
    +64
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    I agree.
    AND we shouldn't judge or condemn others for their understanding or interpretation or lacking thereof. No one is perfect in the eyes of God so what we should do is present the info to others if they want it and pray for their (and our own) guidance.
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Back on topic which is the belief by many that God allowed spirit sons to have flesh bodies and mate with human woman. For real. It is my stubborn opinion that such a belief is AGAINST what Yahweh requires of us which is; Micah 6:8 8 He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God? NWT

    Can someone please explain to me how calling any woman happy to mate with demons kind?

    Please imagine that what many hope for comes true. Imagine the women who have been accused of it are also resurrected to a new earth. Imagine that they did not really have sex with the demons. Imagine how they would feel about you who believe they did. Imagine what they would think of God's people when they found out that you WANT to believe that is what they did.
     
  8. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,814
    Ratings:
    +327
    So are you from your posts saying that you think a person is going to hell for having the opinion that the text clearly implies that the Fallen Angels created the Nephilim with human women?

    You kind of avoided my question of why Jude refers to Enoch 1:9 as prophetic. Was he referring to some other book of Enoch?

    With that said, there are women who are happy to mate with murderous thugs, is that not kind to point that out? There are women who want Charles Manson. Is it not kind to point that out? What's the difference between women who are willing to mate with murderous gang bangers and criminals and women who offer themselves to Fallen Angels? There are witches in history who believed that they were calling on demons to mate with them. Are you saying NO woman would give themselves to a tall, strapping godlike being if they had the chance? I'd say such an opinion is naive at best. Young women are notorious for going with "bad boys", so why is it hard to accept that maybe they went for "bad boys" with godlike bodies?

    I don't see what's unkind about pointing out that numerous women willingly offer themselves to the worst kinds.

    Furthermore, would it be unkind to point out that numerous traditions worldwide involve FEMALE demons mating with male humans? Or is it only unkind to think Women could possibly want an encounter with a demon?

    http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Incubus.html

    I would bet you $1,000,000 I could find at least one or two Goth girls who would happily offer themselves to a demon if they could.

    According to this person, demon intercourse is "Blissful ecstasy". I think I found one for my bet. Heck, that whole article is specifically about how to contact them for the encounter.
     
    #188 Shermana, Oct 30, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I would call you right as right but the scripture calls them 'beautiful' . Of course the scriptures are written from and for a spiritual perspective. So calling them beautiful is not describing what they look like. Because the writer added the word (Strong's 2896) to it I base my conclusion on that. Woman who are "good" "fair" "kindly" ect. would not defy the natural law of one man with one woman (both human) and the being in love for even the hottest angel. That is what I think. And my point of the thread being that is what I believe the writer of it thinks too. I might be wrong but if I am wrong I will experience no bad consequence. If I am right I shall save face. Going to hell? No, lol. Sorry? Maybe.

    He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon. 2 Kings 25:28

    Then the king's personal attendants proposed, "Let a search be made for beautiful young virgins for the king Ester 2:2

    Your brothers, your own family--even they have betrayed you; they have raised a loud cry against you. Do not trust them, though they speak well of you Jeremiah 12:6

    One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten. Jeremiah 24:2

    He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon Jeremiah 52:32

    I will leave the thread with that thought. Genesis 6:2 is not clear about describing a physical manifestation. The other places it is written say nothing about sons of God. Believing it will not result in eternal cutting off all by itself but teaching it might.
     
  10. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    627
    Ratings:
    +64
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    You speak of these women as though they were righteous or God fearing women.
    I can understand you not wanting to place judgement on those women but I personally don't believe I'm placing judgement on them; I'm only going by what the Bible tells me
    which is..5 The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.--Genesis 6:5
    AND
    In this way the people of the world were judged, and Noah was given the blessings that come to everyone who pleases God.--Hebrews 11:7
    AND
    They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood.--1 Peter 3:20
    AND
    And during Noah’s time, God did not have pity on the ungodly people of the world. He destroyed them with a flood, though he did save eight people, including Noah, who preached the truth.--2 Peter 2:5

    You mentioned earlier that when the verse in Genesis 6 mentions the daughters of men being beautiful, it could have meant the women were good or good-hearted
    But if that's the case, how could righteous or God fearing women be enticed to point of having sex with the fallen angels.OR if they weren't convinced, and were raped like you mentioned before..
    why would God allow such a thing to happen to righteous or God-fearing women. It's like saying you or I could be raped by demons. OR if they were possessed or influenced by the fallen angels and allowed that influence to be inherited by their children then it is God who Judged them (by drowning every living thing); not me. like I said I'm only trying to understand the scriptures of the Bible and going by what it says.
     
    #190 Tranquil Servant, Oct 30, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  11. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,814
    Ratings:
    +327
    Savagewind said:
    I'll take my chances.
     
    #191 Shermana, Oct 30, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    There is no proof angels were allowed to live on Earth as humans with human genetics. There are other visions of angels arriving to Earth but they were SENT.

    So scenario three must be correct. "They were influenced by the fallen angels". It is not easy to raise children right. With God's help a parent can only hope to raise the child to be a happy healthy 'beautiful' adult. Their uniting with demons had more to do with the men of that time, don't you think? If you are Christian or whatever, you believe the man is head? The men did not protect their women. Everyone was clueless. They had reason to be, I believe. But when the rain came it proved that even with good excuses Earth will reap what is sown. It is my opinion that modern Man has no excuse to be neglecting the conscious. We have all the tools needed and a Messiah. One cannot arrive at the place of the Messiah by believing things that are not true. I might be wrong. It seems logical to me.

    In my third conclusion (or forth, I'm losing track) scripture means something. It is not present for nothing. If it does not mean marriage or rape, but you believe it does, then the real meaning will be lost.
     
  13. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    627
    Ratings:
    +64
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    Let's look at the verse one more time..
    "When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married (or took) any of them they chose."

    Another thing I find curious about this verse is how it specifically mentions the sons of God and daughters of men; intentionally illustrating opposite sexes as though to imply a coupling of male and female. Why would the fallen angels only pray on women and not men? What were their intentions? Why doesn't the verse say the sons of God saw that the daughters and sons of men were good, and they took any of them they chose"? Were the sons of men not good or were they too strong willed? I know that Eve who was a women was the first to be deceived and convinced by Satan and maybe that's why the fallen angels prayed on women but by that point in time all humans were born into sin. Sons of men could have also been convinced to do their will and give in to sin or the temptations of the fallen angels and Satan; just like nowadays. Cain gave in to sin easily; even after God warned him..."..sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."--Genesis 4:6 So I don't think it would've been difficult for the fallen angels to convince (human) men to do their will and give in to sin; especially if they were offering desires and temptations of the flesh. OR if men were not "good" and were already corrupt, then the men themselves could've easily corrupted the women 'cause don't men entice women and vise versa? Don't husband and wife become one? I don't understand the intentions of the fallen angels praying on women IF men were already corrupt and capable of corrupting women. Couldn't the writer of Genesis just write: and the son's of God came down and went to the sons and daughters of men; and of them were heroes of old, men of renown? I'm not questioning God; I'm questioning this peculiar verse and the meaning. I ask only because I'm really trying to understand.
     
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Christ is the head of every man. That is why evil spirits cannot lead men. When men ARE led by an evil spirit or spirits, they choose to be*

    Another twist in the story is why did the men not fight for the women to protect them from physical abduction? The reason being is the "taking" of them by sons of God went unseen. What do think?

    *the stories of men who are possessed always go along with refusal to be so I think. It may be possible for men to be "taken" but they can not be led. They resist. Resisting is a good idea.
     
  15. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    It is my opinion that Matthew 24:39 means they did not realize what was happening. It is understood by most to mean they did not realize what would happen. It is not a crime to have no knowledge of what will be. It is a crime according to someone to be ignorant of something happening right in front of you.

    Matthew 24:39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    I think "what would happen" is suppose to say "what is happening".
     
  16. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    627
    Ratings:
    +64
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    O-K...
    well..you said men who ARE led by evil spirits, choose to be led but then you say It is possible for men to be "taken" but they can't be led. So I think those men who choose to follow a sinful path are being led by sin (and Satan along with his angels inspire sin) and those who choose to follow Christ are being led by Christ.
    Matthew 7:13-1413 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


    Also, are those who are led by sin considered to be possessed?
     
  17. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    627
    Ratings:
    +64
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    I don't know if this was a reply directed to me but this wasn't one of the verses I quoted. The verses I quoted were to illustrate the circumstances at the time; how the people of his time (and before) were corrupt and how "great man’s wickedness"had become in order to show that maybe the "daughters of men" weren't so good.
    And I still don't understand why fallen angels would come to the women on earth just to inspire or possess them when the people of that time were more than likely already corrupted by sin and wicked.
     
  18. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    11,838
    Ratings:
    +4,702
    Religion:
    ☿ Mercuræn Mahayana Buddhist & Pastafarian
    God rested from creative works on the seventh day. (Is God still resting from the massive creating works? Is it still God's creative Sabbath?) It sounds like the Nephilim wanted to be creators themselves via the daughters of men.

    Didn't Jesus say the son of man (humans? {referring back to sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6}) was "lord of the Sabbath?" Does this mean that the creative sabbath was set aside for fleshly-driven creation? We humans reciprocate this opportunity for fleshly creation by setting aside our sabbaths for spiritual pursuits, resting from the fleshly creative works. Hmm.
     
  19. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Thank you for keeping up with my thread.
    Are all who are led by sin considered [by me] to be possessed? No, not by the kind of personalities we are talking about. This is all just my opinion. I'd say desire might be a powerful force leading to sin that can be called possessing. But it is generated inside a person. The Nephilim have to do with something that was generated outside a person. Can it still happen? I think so. I think I can see it happening. I'm not saying it's not happening to me.

    1 Corinthians 4:4 Weymouth New Testament
    Though I am not conscious of having been in any way unfaithful, yet I do not for that reason stand acquitted; but He whose scrutiny I must undergo is the Lord.
     
  20. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,279
    Ratings:
    +4,449
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    You are making judgement calls that are going beyond the things written imo.
     
Loading...