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Featured ABRAHAMICS ONLY: John the Baptist; a voice in the wilderness saying: Make strait the way of the LORD

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Yahcubs777, Mar 24, 2021.

  1. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    Hello everyone, today i want to touch on something that is not really seen as something that is important. And that is regarding the Great John the Baptist.

    Jesus His Pre-Eminence said:

    John 3
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    Now due to the teachings of the Apostles and saul paul, there is the belief on how to be born again. It is that you are first baptized, and then receive the Most Holy Spirit of GOD when you confess that Jesus (His Pre-Eminence) is Lord, and ask HIM to come into your heart and so on...

    Now without really analysing this further, i have a few simple questions:

    Who Baptised John? We know that it wasn't Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence, and John is the very baptist.
    If John was not baptised, is it that he did not enter into heaven?
     
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  2. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I believe John the Baptist was born again after the resurrection when the Messiah went to Paradise and took captivity captive.
     
  3. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    **THREAD MOVED TO SAME FAITH DEBATES**
     
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  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    The context "born again" of Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus refers to seeing and entering the kingdom of God.
    When will a person both see and enter the kingdom of God?
    I think that a person who is baptized into Christ and remains faithful will be born again from the grave with an immortal body and then will both see and enter the kingdom of God.
     
  5. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    No it doesn't. It means that unless you are born again, ye cannot see the kingdom of GOD. It means thats an evidence of whether you are born again or not. Then the big one, entering into the kingdom, which requires transfiguration in life.
     
  6. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    While it is true that John the Baptist was resurrected and transfigured, it is not true that he was baptized of water or of the Spirit. So either the interpretation is wrong, or it is right and Jesus His Pre-Eminence was not speaking the truth.
     
  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    John is 'Baptized' in a mikva, in the traditional (and possibly secret at that time) way. He's a Levite who is called by the spirit to reject the priesthood in a legal manner, protesting the decadent priesthood, living in the wild and rejecting town life and town support. He uses the filthy Jordan to baptize, which alludes to the baptism of the Syrian general in the story of Elisha. He baptizes Jesus, symbolizing the idea that a student can be greater than the teacher since the spirit goes where it wills.

    John the Baptist is a rogue member of the Levite clan. His father is a Levite, but John leaves the towns to live in the wild, protesting against the current priesthood. Levites have the towns and no other land, and their job is to distribute the tithe, take care of the poor, to educate etc. John the Baptist has nothing, lives from the land, takes no tithe. He opposes the priestly order in the only legal way he can. All this can be surmised from the first chapters of John, Matthew chapter 3 and from reading Leviticus.

    The quoted text is part of a much longer monologue which runs all the way through John 3:21 which concludes by saying "This is the verdict..." What is the verdict? It implies there is a case in which a fair decision must be made. In Christianity I think we are taught this verdict is against the flesh but in favor of humankind. Jesus says in John 3 to Nicodemus several things: the spirit goes where it will (rather than only by mouth to ear or breath to breath), that righteous people come into the light and thereby are known, that The Son's (Isreal's) purpose is not condemning the world but preserving it (and by extension Jesus purpose same in this telling). Was this ever a point of debate among Jews? They were always required to be separate from other nations; and I don't know if this was a point of debate. The gospel of John does not say whether this is the case. The verdict is that light and darkness yield the true judgement as opposed to other means. Good people come into the light where their deeds are known. Evil people hide from the light, so their deeds are not seen. That goes for both Gentiles and Jews. Its not actually a new idea, but Jesus extends this by saying the spirit goes where it wills. You can baptize a man, but you can't give him the spirit. You can make him a Jew, but you can't control the spirit in his mind. You can't keep the spirit from a gentile or from a warlord like the Syrian general. You have no control of the spirit, so all people are one group, ultimately. I don't know if John Baptist means that there is neither Jew nor Gentile or if that comes later, but I suspect his words imply it. He is reiterating the idea that we are all descendants of Adam, one people. That seems to be the implication of the verdict and of this conversation about two births.

    John the Baptist comes preaching "Flatten the hills and raise the valleys" a sermon from Isaiah 40, rejecting the times of unequal status. He is preaching comfort to Jerusalem, that her sins are forgiven, that her hard service has been completed. All are to be spiritual, neither poor nor rich. All are to be one. Is John the Baptist envisioning gentile catholics? Maybe. He's definitely, however, putting all Jews on common footing. Since its a Christian text we can probably assume it ties into catholicism.
     
  8. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    No not exactly. Truly we are all children of Adam biologically, but it is only the children of the kingdom that are children spiritually... John the Baptist is an Elijah. It is only the Elijah that should baptize, no one else. Even Jesus His Pre-Eminence said that HE should be baptized at this time, not that HE should baptize John. The Baptizm of john happened when he was sent into his biological mothers womb. Are you suggesting that John the Baptist shouldve hearkened to those that slew his biological father between the temple and the altar?

    As it was written; Of all born of a woman there is none greater than that of John the Baptist. Even Zechariah would have had to hearken to his biological son if he had been alive. Why? Because in the kingdom, John the Baptist is the Prophet of the highest Order, along with Elijah of Tishbe, who also was rejected by the Jews, and the 3rd Elijah who will take after John, who was called the Son of Man. Therefore, no one would have had the authority to baptize John except GOD. That voice crying out in the wilderness was pointing to the voice who is the only voice who has the message of GOD. So that "Wilderness" is a place where the message of GOD is not. That is why Moses circled the wilderness for 40 years because he was not bringing the accurate messages from GOD. Just as Elijah is that voice among the 450 prophets of baal, that preached the way to GOD, and even demonstrated it in his lifetime in the earth.

    So what im trying to point out here, is that Baptism is not simply being immersed into water, that the very "born of water" is pointing to being born of a woman.; that is how John was born of water. But the Baptism of John was pointing to Abrahams Bosom, and in Jesus His Pre-Eminence case, to Jordan, which is where HIS ministry started. Thus, this is revealing that the born of the Spirit is another thing entirely from what the catholics and all her daughters have believed and preached. For according to the words of Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence, how did Enoch and Elijah enter heaven if they were not born again?

    Thank you for your contribution.
     
    #8 Yahcubs777, Mar 24, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Matt 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, yet even the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

    I am told that Matthew used "heaven" instead of "God" because he wrote for the Jews who had scruples about saying the word God. So anyway it does not mean that John won't be in the Kingdom of God because the OT saints are in the Kingdom of God/heaven.
    Matt 8:11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
    John is the greatest born of women but those in the Kingdom are born of God. They are automatically greater because of that.
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    The interpretation is wrong because being baptized in water was about being born again - and you couldn’t be born again until after the resurrection
     
  11. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    Then Enoch and Elijah would not have been able to enter into heaven. And neither would any that Jesus His Pre-Eminence resurrected according to HIS Words, and your belief system.
     
  12. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Not at all ... you see baptism in water as a requirement -

    baptism into the body of Christ - agent is the blood of Jesus by Holy Spirit

    baptism in water - agent is man In Obedience to mandate BECAUSE one is born again

    It is
     
  13. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    So you just choose to ignore the Words of Jesus His Pre-Eminence? HE said Except, which means there is no other way.
     
  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Let us suppose that people are made in the image of God, which according to the story of Noah is why its wrong to kill a human. I'd interpret it to mean that because we have moral ability (or free will) that it would be shameful. Having eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil we have become 'As gods'. No doubt this affects how I read this passage being discussed.

    I'd view the greatness of John the Baptist differently from you and probably also the nature of Jesus, however I had thought we'd find some agreement about John the Baptist. Unfortunately that has not worked out.

    I did not mean to cause confusion by using the term catholic. Catholic (lower case c) means 'Universal' and is not limited to the Roman Catholic churches. When Christ dies it is for all, and so universal atonement comes through Christ, so the term 'catholic' or 'universal' is suitable though catholic is the more common term. I'm fond of this term, because I think all Christians ought to be in fellowship with each other and break bread without challenging each other's legitimacy. When I say it is catholic I'm referring to all those who consider themselves disciples of Jesus and am not limiting it to those who have come by accepted channels. I did not mean to imply otherwise. It is true that the gospels were passed to us through the Roman Catholics, Orthodox and the Coptics. We have them to thank for it; but I don't consider myself to be illegitimate. Neither do I consider them to be nor you. Each has a measure of faith.

    I think I'd understand you better if you stopped using pre eminence. It doesn't ring any bells for me. I don't have a Roman Catholic background and don't actually know everything they think about this and did not intend to give that impression. My understanding of baptism is that it means you become another's disciple, and what John the Baptist introduces is a situation in which it is the greater being baptized by the lesser. Jesus is his superior, yet he is told to baptize Jesus. So Jesus is submitting to a teacher who is not as good as he is, to a prophet who is not as prophetic, to a son who is not as much like God as he is, to a lesser person altogether.
     
  15. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    They do not even call HIM as I call HIM. It has nothing to do Roman catholics at all. How does that make any sense? Can you imagine how difficult that was for John? Even John confessed saying: It is I that should be baptized of you! The lesser cannot baptize the greater. The reason that baptizm was allowed is because of where Jesus His Pre-Eminence was going to, meaning to the ghost world to free the Son of GOD, Adam. The reason is also because that is where HE exactly stepped into the shoes of the Son of GOD. And also because it was showing that there are the Baptists. That not jsut anyone should baptize.
     
  16. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I get the impression that we are not communicating well. If baptism implies that one is the teacher and one the student then I'd agree that it would matter who does the baptizing, however I'm not sure that it does for Christians since we have one teacher, one father, one faith, one lord, one baptism. Some think it does matter who does the dunking; but its not clear to me why. If it matters, though, I'd go with someone with good character over someone with good knowledge. I'd prefer it be someone I know well who I know is rock solid.
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    not at all... I just read and study and find out what was said and why it was said.

    Just thought I would share why we disagree.

    The reason why people disagree on this point is because there are scriptures that put that into question:

    For an example:

    Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (and other versus about the blood)

    Notice that you will find that it is the blood of Jesus and the body of Jesus that saves and sanctifies... no mention of water baptism.

    So we have to harmonize the scripture and realize that IF you are born again, you should be obedient and get baptized in water. If you give your life to Jesus and then get thrown into the Colosseum and you die, you still are saved even if you were not baptized.
     
  18. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    It will really take alot to explain this further so you can really understand where I am coming from. I will try to keep it short, but i really want you to understand what I mean.

    1. Jesus His Pre-Eminence is the Word correct? John 1:1 This has been not well understood by Jews and Christians alike. The jews took HIS Words to be cannablism, the Christians took HIS Words to mean HIM. But what HE was speaking of is HIS message; Revelations about eternal life; about transfiguration; about resurrection, about the Son of GOD, the Son of Man, about the fall of Man and even the genesis story. These were not just pieces of information, but HIS Word sanctfies. That sanctification is exonoration of the things they said and did (not sinfully) but with the wrong mindset about who GOD is. It is also a shielder, HIS Word like forms a barrier, a hedge like what was written in Job, that the person cannot be harmed by sicknesses and disease: Or by anyone that seeks to harm them; GOD's Word is the shielder that makes the person to become "A Touch Not".


    Jesus His Pre-Eminence saying: I am the bread of life: Your fathers ate Manna and are dead, I am the bread that cometh down from heaven, he that eats of this bread shall never die but live forever.

    If a man keep my sayings he sall never see death.

    Except (which means there is no other way) ye eat th flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    These are Revelations about HIS Word, what HIS Word contains, and that we must eat, assimilate, drink in HIS Word. That is why HIS Word was called "Bread of life", and "Waters of Life". The people have believed that Father Adam and Mother Eve ate from a tree called "The knowledge of good and evil", and that that is what the tree gave them. But they did not believe that what is called "The bread of life" actually gives life.
    And HE brought it home when HE at the last supper revealed that the bread and wine was not HIS body literally, but HIS Word. But the Christians have ritualised this and called it "Holy Communion". A Communion is talking about speech, not unlevened bread and grape juice. That is why HE sealed it when HE said: Do this in rememberance of ME...


    Do what? Eat bread and drink wine? No, eat Revelations, meditate in HIS Word that was personified by HIS flesh and blood. Why? Because HE was speaking from a height of knowledge that was above the understanding of the people. HE was speaking about HIS Gene; the very Gene of the Son of GOD. And this is not something that is just believed. HE revealed that HIS Word is what contains HIS GENE... And by assimilating HIS Word into your Spirit Being, when it reaches the Spirit Being it deposits HIS Gene in the body.

    So when you say we are sanctified through the body and blood of Jesus His Pre-Eminence, you show that you haven't understood that HE is the Word; which means HE personified HIMSELF as HIS message that HE told the people that except they have HIS gene they have no life in them. HE was speaking about the cell system of the body; that blood is the life of the flesh, so the blood of the Son of GOD that sanctifies is not the red blood we have, but HIS Genetics. Meaning, the very cell system of the Son of GOD that Father Adam had before the fall to mortality.

    2. Baptizm is very important if you understand what similitudes and adumbrations are... Baptizm is what is needed to be resurrected at the first resurrection for those that are resurrected, and also for those that did not require resurrection as they transfigured in life. This is not a ritual, it is a must do because it is a kind of cleansing. It also helps the person to be more able to understand revelations as they are raining; giving them a kind of clarity that they could not have had before. But until you understand what being born again is; that it is transfiguration, then you won't see its importance. That is one.

    Two, the person who is baptizing matters. Its not about you being comfortable with the person, or the person being a leader of a church, it is about GOD recognising that baptizm. People have been immersed in water and they wouldn't even know that GOD did not acknowledge it. Why? Because Baptizm is more than just immersion into water, but it is a similitude of the real baptizm, which is the immersion of your Spirit Being into the physical body forming in the womb of your biological mother. And then, the immersion of your Spirit Being into the immortal celestial body, whether by transfiguration in life, or by resurrection. Thus, only those that are highest in rank in the kingdom can baptize, and thes are the three Elijah, which are all baptists. EL-YAH means GOD. The three Elijah are who have the mantle of authority in the earth. When Elijah is in the earth, no Prophet, or Prophetess, or levite, is above him.

    Therefore, being born of water is not immersion into water, but the immersion of your Spirit Being into the body of your biological mother who birthed you into this world. The Woman is defining the body, and the body is earthy. The earth came from water. Thus, the body is born of water. While baptizm by the Spirit and fire, is the wedding of your body and Spirit becoming one flesh; which is immersion into your immortal body. This is what it means to be born again. Therefore, being born again is transfiguration in life.
     
    #18 Yahcubs777, Mar 25, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It is your belief system that says they went to heaven when taken away without dying.
     
  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    He probably went to mikveh of his own accord.
    Man, to think that if Jesus had just thought of his own kavanot while washing and not feeling like he need someone else to think holy stuff for him, Jews would have been spared a load of pain (at least according to "Jew-lover" John (not)).
     
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