Abrahamic religions vs. Secularism

[Nietzsche]

Not in Judaism, certainly. And not in Islam, either, I think. Fundamentalism in both Judaism and Islam as persisting movements (rather than occasional outbreaks of zealotry) are really responses to the challenges of modernity that have arisen only since the 18th century. For Judaism, which measures time in millennia, this is still a passing fad. For Islam, which measures time in centuries, it's still a fairly short-term phenomenon. Only time will tell if fundamentalist movements actually persist in the long term in those religious communities.

I mostly agree with this. A Jewish friend of mine(Christine Graham, lives in Oak Ridge, TN. Her grandmother worked on the Bomb) once said, yeeeeears ago in a joking manner that "You don't see a lot of Jewish fundamentalism because we got all our atrocities out of the way early on". I thought that was funny. Still do. I also think it might not be too far from the truth.

It's harder to tell with Christianity, I think. While fundamentalism as a defined philosophy is new (turn of the 20th Century), Christian zealotry is ancient. But it's hard to tell when the aggression and oppression of Christian nations and churches in the past has been the result of institutionalized zealotry as a driving theoloy, or when Christian zealotry has merely been the mask or tool employed to facilitate aggression and oppression for the sake of politics or pursuit of wealth or imperialism and so forth.

puts on European History Hat

I think that a big problem a lot of people have regarding various actions taken during European Christendom's long history is that they view it through the lens of Bismarkian Realpolitik. It'd take me a week to explain all the intricinities of European dynastic politics, their relation to the Church and later Churches, but I think it would be far fairer to say that it was 55/45. That is to say, slightly in favour in simple "This will help me & my demesne" but also an extremely large amount of genuine belief that it was the right thing to do in the eyes of God.

 

[LuisDantas]

On the other hand, if you are willing to pay attention, you may notice that secularism is spread by today's education system. Everyone stepping out of today's education system is basically secular by default unless he has a will to remain religious.

So, do you think actually wanting to be religious is too high a bar for one to trespass?

Yet secularism isn't necessarily true, it's rather another form of religion.

Secularism is neither a religion nor "false" nor "true". It is just a responsible attitude that all societies should have.

 

[Thana]

It's not our fault that Muslims and Christians are how they are. But to equate them with us is stupid.

And it's not our fault Jews are how they are. lol?

And let's not pretend the Jews are any different. To assert so is beyond ridiculous.

 

[gsa]

And it's not our fault Jews are how they are. lol?

And let's not pretend the Jews are any different. To assert so is beyond ridiculous.

They are very different now. That said, the Zealots and Maccabees don't sound much different from the worst of Abrahamic religion today, and Jewish fundamentalism in modern Israel is equally scary, just comparatively toothless.

 

[Nietzsche]

On the other hand, if you are willing to pay attention, you may notice that secularism is spread by today's education system. Everyone stepping out of today's education system is basically secular by default unless he has a will to remain religious. Yet secularism isn't necessarily true, it's rather another form of religion.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[icehorse]

I actually wonder how much incidents like these, as with so many other problematic examples of religion clashing with secular culture, come from fundamentalist views rather than religion per se.

I think it would be a good idea not to conflate religion and fundamentalism. The two are not synonymous.

Agreed. But what percentage of a religious group need to believe something for it to no longer be called fundamentalism? 30%? 50%?

I ask because I think it's a common misconception that there are only a few fundamentalists in Christianity and Islam. I think the numbers are much higher than is typically acknowledged, maybe roughly 30% for both groups?

 

[icehorse]

On the other hand, if you are willing to pay attention, you may notice that secularism is spread by today's education system. Everyone stepping out of today's education system is basically secular by default unless he has a will to remain religious. Yet secularism isn't necessarily true, it's rather another form of religion.

Seems like a false equivalency to me, but I'll bite, how is secularism another form of religion?

 

[Flankerl]

And it's not our fault Jews are how they are. lol?

And let's not pretend the Jews are any different. To assert so is beyond ridiculous.

While you wrote this I was outside forcing non-Jews to accept my Religious views and not to insult them, otherwise....
I also met around 14 Jews doing exactly the same.

True story.

 

[1robin]

It strikes me that most of the attacks mounted against secularism come from either Christians or Muslims. In this case it's Muslims:

Seattle Muslims Demand Teacher Be Canned For Showing Muhammad Cartoons To Teens - Yahoo News

But in the US we also see Christians attacking the teaching of evolution and so on.

==

Does this seem like a fairly accurate generalization? I don't recall such assaults coming from other religious groups. I wonder why these two groups are so sensitive?

I think it works like this. Islam complains about every one and everything including each other, secularism and Christianity complain about each other but at least here and now secularism is the only one hijacking the mechanisms of state to enforce their complaints on a majority Christian nation. However forget all of that for a second.

I would think the reason that Christianity and Islam complain more about secularism than other groups is because theism is secularisms natural opponent for the public square and since Islam and Christianity account for 1 out of approx. 2 people they will of course make up the majority of those who complain about secularism.

 

[Thana]

While you wrote this I was outside forcing non-Jews to accept my Religious views and not to insult them, otherwise....
I also met around 14 Jews doing exactly the same.

True story.

It's cute, the way you think to provoke me with your childishness and condescension, But I'd rather stay focused on the topic.
Such as how Judaism isn't different to Christianity or Islam, Unless you'd like to give some proof of how there is no fundamentalism, religious violence or proselytizing in Judaism?

 

[Flankerl]

It's cute, the way you think to provoke me with your childishness and condescension, But I'd rather stay focused on the topic.
Such as how Judaism isn't different to Christianity or Islam, Unless you'd like to give some proof of how there is no fundamentalism, religious violence or proselytizing in Judaism?

Proselytising in Judaism? You really have no clue about Judaism do you?

 

[Thana]

Proselytising in Judaism? You really have no clue about Judaism do you?

Right, because it never happens or has happened before.

 

[Flankerl]

Right, because it never happens or has happened before.

Oh yeah some 3500 years ago. Great stuff.

And no proselytising never happens. Really sorry about that.

 

[Thana]

Oh yeah some 3500 years ago. Great stuff.

And no proselytising never happens. Really sorry about that.

Really? Care to show the proof that it never happens ever? Or am I just supposed to take your word for it, since apparently you speak for all Jews?

 

[icehorse]

I think it works like this. Islam complains about every one and everything including each other, secularism and Christianity complain about each other but at least here and now secularism is the only one hijacking the mechanisms of state to enforce their complaints on a majority Christian nation. However forget all of that for a second.

I would think the reason that Christianity and Islam complain more about secularism than other groups is because theism is secularisms natural opponent for the public square and since Islam and Christianity account for 1 out of approx. 2 people they will of course make up the majority of those who complain about secularism.

wow!

 

[1robin]

wow!

You did notice the .1 font qualifier in the size 20 font you put that statement in didn't you. Here and now.

 

[icehorse]

I'm amazed that your view is that secularism is hijacking the US. wow!

Secularism is freedom of religion's best hope. Now I suppose you might really believe that the US is a "Christian Nation", and so you don't care whether folks from other religions get to practice theirs?

 

[Cephus]

It strikes me that most of the attacks mounted against secularism come from either Christians or Muslims. In this case it's Muslims:

Seattle Muslims Demand Teacher Be Canned For Showing Muhammad Cartoons To Teens - Yahoo News

But in the US we also see Christians attacking the teaching of evolution and so on.

==

Does this seem like a fairly accurate generalization? I don't recall such assaults coming from other religious groups. I wonder why these two groups are so sensitive?

Those are two that you are most familiar with, the same thing goes on in virtually every religion. Heck, Scientology freaks out any time anyone says anything negative about them and files massive lawsuits. It's just something that religious crazies do.

 

[Cephus]

In the case of Fundie Jews, they'res not too many of them. In the case of Hindus, they tend to be found mostly in India.

But in those areas where hyper-orthodox Jews gather, like New York City, life can be utter hell for anyone outside of that faith that lives in their area. The same of Hindus in India. Non-Hindus are treated very badly.

 

[Levite]

Agreed. But what percentage of a religious group need to believe something for it to no longer be called fundamentalism? 30%? 50%?

I don't know that an exact number could be put on it, but I would say better than half, for more than two generations.

I ask because I think it's a common misconception that there are only a few fundamentalists in Christianity and Islam. I think the numbers are much higher than is typically acknowledged, maybe roughly 30% for both groups?

I think there are proportionally more Christian fundamentalists in the United States than most other places, which is deceptive. But I agree that in the US, there are a fair number of fundamentalists, though I think their influence is strengthened by a lot of Christians who are not necessarily avowedly theologically fundamentalist, but accept the leadership or authenticity of fundamentalist religious leaders out of ignorance or apathy or both.

It's harder to gauge with Islam, since much of their modern fundamentalism is traceable to the rise of Wahhabism, and the Wahhabi influence is felt far outside those who strictly and admittedly profess it; and also to the problem that many theoretically non-fundamentalist Muslims are people in the Third World with very little education and low literacy rates, whose more fundamentalist-seeming practices result from the admixture of cultural folkways into Muslim practice that actually have little or nothing to do with Islam. I think this makes it hard to really tell.