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Abrahamic Only: Who is Jehovah?

rosends

Well-Known Member
Em I thinketh not, at least I am thinkething I thinketh not. Are you saying IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for my terp of Shema to be two verses only, Deut 6:4-5?

If so, then why so? So you can prove yourself superior, yeah innit? So then do so.
You really miss the boat on this. You start by creating this thing called "shema". What is that thing. All you gave is a set of 2 verses. Why call them (note, 2 verses) the shema. Why not just quote one, which has the word shema in it. Once you open up your construct to have 2 verses, why not 3, or four or more? In fact, In Judaism, what we call the shema has 3 paragraphs and includes a variety of laws and obligations. It is not impossible for your interpretation to be something, just useless.
 

nothead

Active Member
You really miss the boat on this. You start by creating this thing called "shema". What is that thing. All you gave is a set of 2 verses. Why call them (note, 2 verses) the shema. Why not just quote one, which has the word shema in it. Once you open up your construct to have 2 verses, why not 3, or four or more? In fact, In Judaism, what we call the shema has 3 paragraphs and includes a variety of laws and obligations. It is not impossible for your interpretation to be something, just useless.

The two verses are the interpretation of rabbi Jesus' own interpretation, sir...Mk 12. YAYUH, man, I follow the MAN, man.

But please regard this-to-you offensive history of Shema given by my other less regarded rabbi, Mr. Wiki:

Originally, the Shema consisted of only one verse: Deuteronomy 6:4 (see Talmud Sukkah 42a and Berachot 13b). The recitation of the Shema in the liturgy, however, consists of three portions: Deuteronomy 6:4–9, 11:13-21, and Numbers15:37–41. The three portions are already mentioned in the Mishnah (Berachot 2:2). The three portions relate to central issues of Jewish belief. In the Mishnah (Berakhot 2:5) the reciting of the shema was linked with re-affirming a personal relationship with God's rule. Literally, reciting the shma was stated as "receiving the kingdom of heaven." ["Heaven" is a metaphor for God. The best texts of the Mishnah, Kaufmann and Parma, do not have the addition "yoke" that is found in later printed Mishnahs: "receive the {yoke of the} kingdom of Heaven." The original statement appears to have been "to receive the kingdom of Heaven"]

So then please bridge the historical gap between the one verse and your own consideration thereof. Thank you and sorry for the homework. Nothead knows he don't like very much of it.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
The secondary transmission of God's Word through Jesus was done the same way it was done Moses, sir? Perhaps you think he composed all 5 Books by his own hand? I am sure I am interested in just how this was done. While THEY wandered around and fought the bad guys, MOSES stayed behind the front lines and composed all day long? 40 years COULD might produce such a multifarious work of tomes...however the categorizations of the Books THEMSELVES imply these came from an oral tradition initially. And the lack of single authorial cohesiveness, as I am myself, identified by my own writing style, gomerish, but true...I may repeat myself, but being of one mind and will don't usually contradict my own writings with odd data which would imply I was senile to begin with. The contradictions in text do in fact imply different versions and different secondary writers, although the THREAD of truth is still unbroken. Plz see the differences bet Exodus and Deuteronomy, covering the same events. Why cover them twice in the first place if you are a tome writer and did them all by your own hand? Moses was forgetful? Had bad hair days? Intermittent Alzheimers? What?

The statement, "That Jew WAS Jesus," in the past tense refers to having been TAUGHT in the past tense. Now I am teaching you what I have been taught. Was my grammar wrong, past tense since I THOUGHT just before I TYPED here, sir?

I'm not Orthodox. I don't believe that Moses literally wrote the Five Books, nor do I believe that any are literally the dictated word of God. However, I am not claiming that Moses has personally taught me anything.

And I think it is entirely relevant that you are claiming that Jesus has taught you what would be unique and radically different Jewish interpretations of Jewish text, yet you seem to be perfectly comfortably admitting that everything in your scriptures is the result of an oral tradition-- an oral tradition, which, by the time it was written down only decades or centuries after Jesus' lifetime was already massively dominated by, assembled by, and redacted by non-Jews. There is, in short, ample reason to suppose that little, if anything, in the Christian scriptures is, in fact, literal teachings of the historical Jesus.

This is in stark contrast to Jewish scriptures and sacred texts, both Biblical and Rabbinic, which have never been assembled, redacted, or otherwise fundamentally interfered with by non-Jews. Whatever the authorship, it is a Jewish authorship. Whatever the redactorship, it is a Jewish redactorship. Whatever the evolutions of thought in the history of Jewish sacred texts and their interpretation, the constant has been that it was always Jews doing the thinking, writing, and interpreting.

Christianity is not Judaism. It is a separate religion. It is a religion of non-Jews, and has been since very shortly after Jesus' lifetime. And the convoluted theology and interpretation that you have been presenting in this thread is Christian. It is not Jewish. The fact that you worship a dead Jew does not make what you say Jewish. If anything, it makes it even less Jewish. I have no problem with it as Christianity, as a non-Jewish theology and interpretation for non-Jews. But as soon as you begin presenting it as having any kind of Jewish legitimacy or authenticity, we have a problem, because it has neither.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The two verses are the interpretation of rabbi Jesus' own interpretation, sir...Mk 12. YAYUH, man, I follow the MAN, man.

But please regard this-to-you offensive history of Shema given by my other less regarded rabbi, Mr. Wiki:

Originally, the Shema consisted of only one verse: Deuteronomy 6:4 (see Talmud Sukkah 42a and Berachot 13b). The recitation of the Shema in the liturgy, however, consists of three portions: Deuteronomy 6:4–9, 11:13-21, and Numbers15:37–41. The three portions are already mentioned in the Mishnah (Berachot 2:2). The three portions relate to central issues of Jewish belief. In the Mishnah (Berakhot 2:5) the reciting of the shema was linked with re-affirming a personal relationship with God's rule. Literally, reciting the shma was stated as "receiving the kingdom of heaven." ["Heaven" is a metaphor for God. The best texts of the Mishnah, Kaufmann and Parma, do not have the addition "yoke" that is found in later printed Mishnahs: "receive the {yoke of the} kingdom of Heaven." The original statement appears to have been "to receive the kingdom of Heaven"]

So then please bridge the historical gap between the one verse and your own consideration thereof. Thank you and sorry for the homework. Nothead knows he don't like very much of it.
So if the 2 verses is Jesus then it is irrelevant to Judaism. As the wiki page mentions but doesn't fully explain, the obligation of reciting the shema exists in 4 states:

1. the singular verse
2. the verse and 3 chapters
3. the full content with the requisite blessings before and after it
4. the content said at particular times of day.

The "2 verses" thing therefore is completely outside of any Jewish understanding of the obligation (which is to recite the shema, not to love). The shema statement (that single verse) is the statement of the unity of God. The first chapter focuses on the obligation to love and worship God, the second paragraph is on the obligation to accept all the commandments and recognize the concept of reward and punishment and the third is on the daily obligation to discuss the Exodus every day. The distinction between items 1 and 2 in my list (and also 2 and 3) have to do with the time available, other distractions and the time of day.
 

nothead

Active Member
I'm not Orthodox. I don't believe that Moses literally wrote the Five Books, nor do I believe that any are literally the dictated word of God. However, I am not claiming that Moses has personally taught me anything.

And I think it is entirely relevant that you are claiming that Jesus has taught you what would be unique and radically different Jewish interpretations of Jewish text, yet you seem to be perfectly comfortably admitting that everything in your scriptures is the result of an oral tradition-- an oral tradition, which, by the time it was written down only decades or centuries after Jesus' lifetime was already massively dominated by, assembled by, and redacted by non-Jews. There is, in short, ample reason to suppose that little, if anything, in the Christian scriptures is, in fact, literal teachings of the historical Jesus.

This is in stark contrast to Jewish scriptures and sacred texts, both Biblical and Rabbinic, which have never been assembled, redacted, or otherwise fundamentally interfered with by non-Jews. Whatever the authorship, it is a Jewish authorship. Whatever the redactorship, it is a Jewish redactorship. Whatever the evolutions of thought in the history of Jewish sacred texts and their interpretation, the constant has been that it was always Jews doing the thinking, writing, and interpreting.

Christianity is not Judaism. It is a separate religion. It is a religion of non-Jews, and has been since very shortly after Jesus' lifetime. And the convoluted theology and interpretation that you have been presenting in this thread is Christian. It is not Jewish. The fact that you worship a dead Jew does not make what you say Jewish. If anything, it makes it even less Jewish. I have no problem with it as Christianity, as a non-Jewish theology and interpretation for non-Jews. But as soon as you begin presenting it as having any kind of Jewish legitimacy or authenticity, we have a problem, because it has neither.

Your claimed father is not Moses OR even Abraham? The history of NT tells of both, the Jewish detractors' own claim that Abraham was their father in the faith, sir. You would emphasize a modern rabbi even Maimonides, relatively speaking over your PATRIARCHS, sir? You ignore Torah because it was written by a secondary hand? What?

Is that what your rabbi's been telling you, sir Levite sir? What kinda rabbis you listening to? Modern is good, huh. Say alot of CHRISTIANS think the same lame samo. Join the Club. New revelation is always better, why since mod-man is superior anyway, anytime, anywhere? Whoo hoo. He thinketh like no man before or since...

And by the way, as far as I know EVERY SINGLE gospel and epistle was written by a Jew in NT. NOW whatchoo got to say. No don't sneeze, but I see the wrong end of you spewing. Yeah I KNOW, make Jesus a Gentile and now you can completely break into two, the Judeo-Christian religion. Make him say he is God Almighty and sure nuff, he mustnt be a bona fide Jew atall. Too bad you can't, sir.
 

nothead

Active Member
So if the 2 verses is Jesus then it is irrelevant to Judaism. As the wiki page mentions but doesn't fully explain, the obligation of reciting the shema exists in 4 states:

1. the singular verse
2. the verse and 3 chapters
3. the full content with the requisite blessings before and after it
4. the content said at particular times of day.

The "2 verses" thing therefore is completely outside of any Jewish understanding of the obligation (which is to recite the shema, not to love). The shema statement (that single verse) is the statement of the unity of God. The first chapter focuses on the obligation to love and worship God, the second paragraph is on the obligation to accept all the commandments and recognize the concept of reward and punishment and the third is on the daily obligation to discuss the Exodus every day. The distinction between items 1 and 2 in my list (and also 2 and 3) have to do with the time available, other distractions and the time of day.

That "obligation" and itemization is from YOUR own imagination, sir. Now you must say it is possible to stop anywhere along the spectrum of the single verse to your multifarious add-ons. Jesus added ONE on, and you added how many on. So then who is right? I will state, em, you know what I will state. Now we know, EITHER position or anywhere in-between is possible. By the way, Jesus did not say v. 7-9 was NOT part of Shema, only what he felt was simply said, basic and true.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
That "obligation" and itemization is from YOUR own imagination, sir. Now you must say it is possible to stop anywhere along the spectrum of the single verse to your multifarious add-ons. Jesus added ONE on, and you added how many on. So then who is right? I will state, em, you know what I will state. Now we know, EITHER position or anywhere in-between is possible. By the way, Jesus did not say v. 7-9 was NOT part of Shema, only what he felt was simply said, basic and true.
No, that obligation comes from the talmud which is what you quoted from the wiki page. Pay attention. It is also the obligation that Jesus was aware of from the oral law. Jesus added one and I added none -- I referenced the talmud which set the normative law. Note that YOU quoted this line, "The three portions are already mentioned in the Mishnah (Berachot 2:2)." You really should read what you cut and paste.
 

nothead

Active Member
The 'argument' itself is unreal when based on modern translations. No one has , that I can recall, explicitly stated which Deific titles were used in the original Bibles. Was Jesus title as Lord, the same written word as JHVH's title as Lord, or not? Not the 'intended meaning'. Not 'what I'm supposed to believe'. Just the words the actual words, in greek. Are they the same in the original bibles , or not?
Examples:

potato, potato--> these are the same words.

potato, Potato--> these are not the same words.

This name was said by God in Exodus 3 to be His definitive name. All others are translations of, veiled versions of, transliterations of. I may myself not take offense to any offshoot names afforded me. God's mother tongue was originally Hebrew though, and even the conventional translations thereof stem back to IT.
 

nothead

Active Member
No, that obligation comes from the talmud which is what you quoted from the wiki page. Pay attention. It is also the obligation that Jesus was aware of from the oral law. Jesus added one and I added none -- I referenced the talmud which set the normative law. Note that YOU quoted this line, "The three portions are already mentioned in the Mishnah (Berachot 2:2)." You really should read what you cut and paste.

You emphasize Mishnah over Torah? Why?
 

nothead

Active Member
In Judaism the two are complementary, not in competition. You emphasize Jesus over Torah, why?

Jesus is fulfillment of both Torah and Shema. Is why, but I dont' expect you to revelate this one...

Mishnah must come BEHIND Torah since these are commentaries OF Torah. What did I say wrong? Why you have canon in OT if all writings are comparatively equal?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Jesus is fulfillment of both Torah and Shema. Is why, but I dont' expect you to revelate this one...

Mishnah must come BEHIND Torah since these are commentaries OF Torah. What did I say wrong? Why you have canon in OT if all writings are comparatively equal?
The mishna is a series of complementary statements revealed at Sinai and transmitted orally. They often provide detail or explanation to otherwise unclear simple bible statement. The canon of the Tanach is the written text. The mishna (and the gemara) is the ORAL law. Therefore, it wasn't initially written.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Your claimed father is not Moses OR even Abraham? The history of NT tells of both, the Jewish detractors' own claim that Abraham was their father in the faith, sir. You would emphasize a modern rabbi even Maimonides, relatively speaking over your PATRIARCHS, sir? You ignore Torah because it was written by a secondary hand? What?

Of course not, don't be ridiculous. I said no such thing. What I said was that I did not believe that God literally dictated the Torah to Moses, nor that the Torah as we have it was literally composed by Moses personally. I certainly believe that Torah is revelatory-- that the various authors who wrote it were prophets in some measure or other-- but I also don't believe that prophecy is like a phone call from God. It requires interpretation-- in fact, it requires evolving interpretation. Which is why I also do believe that the Torah is authoritative-- the whole Torah, the Written together with the Oral. And why I believe that rabbis, commentators, mystics, halachic jurists, and theologians since the the time of the Talmud are also participants in Oral Torah, as Oral Torah is neverending.

What kinda rabbis you listening to?

Jewish ones.

New revelation is always better...

For us Jews, there are no new revelations. There is the revelation of Torah [in its widest sense of Tanach and Oral Torah], and it is ongoing. There are no further revelations needed beside it.

And by the way, as far as I know EVERY SINGLE gospel and epistle was written by a Jew in NT. NOW whatchoo got to say.

That current scholarship indicates you need to know further. Because probably most were not. And even of those that were, they were apostatic Jews-- their writings hold no Jewish value or significance, let alone authority.

make Jesus a Gentile and now you can completely break into two, the Judeo-Christian religion.

Of course Jesus wasn't a gentile. I never said he was. I said he was a heretic whose teachings were overrun, subsumed by, rewritten by, and reshaped by non-Jewish Christians who came after him.

Also, there is no such thing as "the Judeo-Christian religion." There may have been for a slight few years after Jesus' lifetime, but the two religions have been absolutely distinct and irreconcilable for at least 1800 years, probably more.

Make him say he is God Almighty and sure nuff, he mustnt be a bona fide Jew atall.

I doubt he himself ever claimed to be God. But the Christian scriptures, Church Fathers, and later Christian thinkers and theologians certainly claim him to be God. In any case, even if he had claimed himself to be God, that would make him a heretic and blasphemer, but still a Jewish one.
 

nothead

Active Member
The mishna is a series of complementary statements revealed at Sinai and transmitted orally. They often provide detail or explanation to otherwise unclear simple bible statement. The canon of the Tanach is the written text. The mishna (and the gemara) is the ORAL law. Therefore, it wasn't initially written.

Any rabbi can be a Mishna-adder in ancient times? Or was it Moses only, regarding his own identified writings?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Any rabbi can be a Mishna-adder in ancient times? Or was it Moses only, regarding his own identified writings?
No rabbi was a "mishna-adder". They were "mishna speakers" having received the oral laws which had been transmitted orally since Sinai.
 

nothead

Active Member
Of course not, don't be ridiculous. I said no such thing. What I said was that I did not believe that God literally dictated the Torah to Moses, nor that the Torah as we have it was literally composed by Moses personally. I certainly believe that Torah is revelatory-- that the various authors who wrote it were prophets in some measure or other-- but I also don't believe that prophecy is like a phone call from God. It requires interpretation-- in fact, it requires evolving interpretation. Which is why I also do believe that the Torah is authoritative-- the whole Torah, the Written together with the Oral. And why I believe that rabbis, commentators, mystics, halachic jurists, and theologians since the the time of the Talmud are also participants in Oral Torah, as Oral Torah is neverending.

All revelatory communication is inspired, but the writings with a thread of truth inerrant are supremely inspired. You can have an inspired oral testimony which is half-true and inspired along the spectrum of that 50%...or you can have the Word of God SENT by which any error you communicate is punishable as blasphemy and for being a traitor to God.

This is why later Jewish Theologians took the bulk of writings and determined which was what. Same process in the NT, for instance those which make God's will for every man to not be married, contradicts Jesus' own teachings about a spiritual eunuch who is more blessed for being chaste. And the other things may be of the Way, however the cognitive dissonance of the evil yeast in the dough so to speak has too much implication for the writing to be held in general as true.

The optimism of rabbi-add is the same optimism down the post you make for our later fathers in Christianity. The principle still holds, those sent of God are the communicators of God, and their oral or written testimony has to be affirmed in general with the benefit of doubt given complex passages.



For us Jews, there are no new revelations. There is the revelation of Torah [in its widest sense of Tanach and Oral Torah], and it is ongoing. There are no further revelations needed beside it.

This is what happens when you have no further need of a prophet to turn you back to Core. Even your Messiah cometh in the future will not have this function eh? As you pined for another prophet to come, now you DO NOT pine for the coming Messiah to tell you the contextually PRESENT will of God? Is this advisable, sir?



That current scholarship indicates you need to know further. Because probably most were not. And even of those that were, they were apostatic Jews-- their writings hold no Jewish value or significance, let alone authority.

Rather shows what you have not paid attention to, since you despise...give evidence or cry in your chicken soup on this one.



Of course Jesus wasn't a gentile. I never said he was. I said he was a heretic whose teachings were overrun, subsumed by, rewritten by, and reshaped by non-Jewish Christians who came after him.

Both a heretic and warped FURTHER by worse heretics...nice paradigm. Yet you will not find anything he said which you either must change in your own theology, or consider as being affirmative to your religion.

Also, there is no such thing as "the Judeo-Christian religion." There may have been for a slight few years after Jesus' lifetime, but the two religions have been absolutely distinct and irreconcilable for at least 1800 years, probably more.

Good point. I endeavor to proclaim the first two gen saints of Jesus to be the true Christianity. AND of our shared Judeo-Christian religion.



I doubt he himself ever claimed to be God. But the Christian scriptures, Church Fathers, and later Christian thinkers and theologians certainly claim him to be God. In any case, even if he had claimed himself to be God, that would make him a heretic and blasphemer, but still a Jewish one

He did not, weakening your own claim of heresy for him.
 

nothead

Active Member
No rabbi was a "mishna-adder". They were "mishna speakers" having received the oral laws which had been transmitted orally since Sinai.

Yeah, commentators. That's what I thought. Sorta like color commentary in sports? I'm a color guy too. But my words are far from inerrant, by your view not even having any errant, yeah innit?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Yeah, commentators. That's what I thought. Sorta like color commentary in sports? I'm a color guy too. But my words are far from inerrant, by your view not even having any errant, yeah innit?
Notice how I said "speaker" and you changed it to "commentator"? Then how you asked questions based on the use of the word "commentator"? That's called a "straw man" you just set up. It is a rhetorical fallacy and not very useful in real conversation.
 
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