• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Abrahamic - Mormons

SoyLeche

meh...
NoName said:
3 Nephi 15:24 says that the Gentiles won't hear the voice of the Lord. But Joseph Smith heard him.
There are some that will argue that there aren't all that many "Gentiles" in the western world -- that the blood of Israel is pretty wide spread.
 

NoName

Member
SoyLeche said:
There are some that will argue that there aren't all that many "Gentiles" in the western world -- that the blood of Israel is pretty wide spread.
Then how can it be said that the gospel will go from the gentiles to the jews, if there really are no gentiles, and Joseph smith certainly wasn't one of them?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
3 Nephi 15:24 says that the Gentiles won't hear the voice of the Lord. But Joseph Smith heard him.
Once again, you have really made me think. I'll tell you what I think this passage is saying. (Actually, the entire chapter is relevant here, not just the last verse.)

Verse 21 states, "And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

If you go to the Bible, you can see that Jesus is referring to what He said in John 10:16. He uses exactly the same words as He did in John and is telling the Nephites that they are the people He was speaking of when He made that statement to His followers back in the Holy Land. Many people assume that He was referring to the Gentiles. But this couldn't be the case, because He was not sent to preach His gospel to the Gentiles. In Matthew 15:24 He specifically said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." His Gospel would eventually be preached to the Gentiles. He commanded His Apostles to spread it throughout the world, to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people. But all of these people (the Gentiles of the world) would hear His word, not His voice. His "other sheep," in other words those who would hear His voice, had to be among the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But, as you pointed out, Joseph Smith heard the voice of Jesus Christ. This was, of course, 2400 years after the events described in the beginning of the Book of Mormon occurred, and 1800 years after Christ appeared to the Nephites. Jesus never did personally preach His gospel to anyone but the Jews. On the other hand, 1 Nephi 13:32-36 describes how the Gospel will be restored to the earth through the Gentiles, which is what happened starting with his appearance to Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Katzpur said:
Once again, you have really made me think. I'll tell you what I think this passage is saying. (Actually, the entire chapter is relevant here, not just the last verse.)

Verse 21 states, "And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

If you go to the Bible, you can see that Jesus is referring to what He said in John 10:16. He uses exactly the same words as He did in John and is telling the Nephites that they are the people He was speaking of when He made that statement to His followers back in the Holy Land. Many people assume that He was referring to the Gentiles. But this couldn't be the case, because He was not sent to preach His gospel to the Gentiles. In Matthew 15:24 He specifically said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." His Gospel would eventually be preached to the Gentiles. He commanded His Apostles to spread it throughout the world, to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people. But all of these people (the Gentiles of the world) would hear His word, not His voice. His "other sheep," in other words those who would hear His voice, had to be among the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But, as you pointed out, Joseph Smith heard the voice of Jesus Christ. This was, of course, 2400 years after the events described in the beginning of the Book of Mormon occurred, and 1800 years after Christ appeared to the Nephites. Jesus never did personally preach His gospel to anyone but the Jews. On the other hand, 1 Nephi 13:32-36 describes how the Gospel will be restored to the earth through the Gentiles, which is what happened starting with his appearance to Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove.
Katz' answer is better than mine, as usual. ;)
 

NoName

Member
Katzpur said:
Jesus never did personally preach His gospel to anyone but the Jews.
So you don't think it counts as "personally preaching his gospel" when he gave revelation to joe about certain "gospel" principles such as eternal marriage?
 

SoyLeche

meh...
NoName said:
So you don't think it counts as "personally preaching his gospel" when he gave revelation to joe about certain "gospel" principles such as eternal marriage?
The point of the statement that He made to the Nephites was that when he said "Other sheep have I" he was not referring to the Gentiles, as is commonly believed. It didn't mean that no Gentile would ever see Him. That can't be the case, because we believe that when He comes for the second time, the whole world will see him and acknowledge that he is the Christ.
 

NoName

Member
SoyLeche said:
The point of the statement that He made to the Nephites was that when he said "Other sheep have I" he was not referring to the Gentiles, as is commonly believed. It didn't mean that no Gentile would ever see Him. That can't be the case, because we believe that when He comes for the second time, the whole world will see him and acknowledge that he is the Christ.
Yes, I realise that. But Katzpur made the comment that the Lord would never preach his gospel personally to the Gentiles like he did to the Jews. But it seems like that's what he was doing when he gave Joseph Smith those revelations. It seems like he was preaching the gospel to the gentiles like he did to the jews.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
NoName said:
Yes, I realise that. But Katzpur made the comment that the Lord would never preach his gospel personally to the Gentiles like he did to the Jews. But it seems like that's what he was doing when he gave Joseph Smith those revelations. It seems like he was preaching the gospel to the gentiles like he did to the jews.
No, he was calling prophets to teach the people, just like he always has.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
So you don't think it counts as "personally preaching his gospel" when he gave revelation to joe about certain "gospel" principles such as eternal marriage?
No, I don't. I think He was was specifically referring to the fact that, during His lifetime, He would not personally preach His gospel to the Gentiles. He said He wouldn't and He didn't. He had a very definite mission to fulfill. When He said, "It is finished," just prior to His death on the cross, He was referrIng to that mission.

I don't think He was speaking in terms of something that was to happen 1820 years later, particularly since the Book of Mormon says that the Gospel will be restored to the Jews through the Gentiles.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I may not be posting, but I am enjoying following this thread......
icon12.gif
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
NoName said:
Do you have to hold the priesthood to be the prophet?
In the LDS church today? Yes. The prophet is an Apostle, which is an office in the Melchezedek Priesthood.

EDIT: Techinically, all the leaders in the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles are sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators," although when we refer to "the Prophet" we are usually referring to the President of the Church.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
Do you have to hold the priesthood to be the prophet?
I can't wait to see where you're going with this one, NoName, although I think I know. Normally, yes. Our prophet holds the Melchizedek Priesthood. He would have had to hold this Priesthood in order to have been called to the office of Apostle and then ultimately the office of Prophet. However, there was a time when the Priesthood was not on the earth at all. In order to have re-established it, God would have had to speak to a non-Priesthood holder, just to get the ball rolling. ;) Once the Priesthood had been re-established, God could (and did, in my opinion) call one of His Priesthood holders to the office of Prophet, Seer and Revelator.

How'd I do? (I mean in terms of how well I guessed where you were heading with your question?)
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Aqualung said:
People always talk about the Book of Mormon being fundamentally different than the Bible. I have (and probably the no mormon has) ever been given an example that this was true. So let's debate it. The only works that are allowed in here is the Book of Mormon and the Bible. NO other works!!!
well aqualung i'll be honest with you...
i find the majority of whats in the Gospels and ESPECIALLY the writings of paul fundamentally different than Torah and they are all lumped together in christianity in "The Bible" like it supposed to go together.:sarcastic
but then again it's (the christian NT) their docterine of faith and i'm not gonna say that it's necessarily wrong, nor will i say that your book of mormon is wrong either
it's just not the same as the Torah (not in a good vs. bad way, just in an apples and oranges way)
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Aqualung said:
Nobody has a problem with the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible? Abolutely nobody?
I don't... but then I'm a UU. You won't get any argument from me over your beliefs.
 

NoName

Member
Katzpur said:
I can't wait to see where you're going with this one, NoName, although I think I know. Normally, yes. Our prophet holds the Melchizedek Priesthood. He would have had to hold this Priesthood in order to have been called to the office of Apostle and then ultimately the office of Prophet. However, there was a time when the Priesthood was not on the earth at all. In order to have re-established it, God would have had to speak to a non-Priesthood holder, just to get the ball rolling. ;) Once the Priesthood had been re-established, God could (and did, in my opinion) call one of His Priesthood holders to the office of Prophet, Seer and Revelator.

How'd I do? (I mean in terms of how well I guessed where you were heading with your question?)
You did pretty well, but I was actually thinking about how there were women who were prophets in the OT, which means that either A) the OT allowed women to be priest but the Mormons don't (a flip-flop) or B) the OT allowed non-priests to be prophets, but the Mormons don't (another flip flop).

But then when I was trying desperately to fall asleep, I managed to answer this one on my own, much in the same way you answered it, but not quite. It had to do with that the prophet nowadays holds all the keys, but a prophet in the OT times probably wasn't holding any. (Or something like that... I could be completely wrong anyway...)
 
Hey a thread that I probably should have jumped on immediately. First being a STICKLER you could find small number errors.. names.. ect But that is in both the original text and the book of mormon. So I hope to merely stick with theological problems I see.. but i will also throw in alot of joseph smith things, mainly because thats what I've been researching today.. Here we goooo-

---- Number of God's Issue. ESPECIALLY since common mormon thought has been at times that we eventually become Gods.

MORMONISM: "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth." - Joseph Smith, (allegedly from a translation of an ancient papyrus), Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4:1

Should i get into the doctrine books... LDS believe we eventually become Gods but i guess you already know that.

CHRISTIANITY: "You are my witnesses, " declares the Lord, "And my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me." - Isaiah 43:10

-----This one could get me into trouble... But you can take what you want front it.

MORMONISM: "While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor. He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. ... He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; ... He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fullness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;" - Joseph Smith, The Origin of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon

CHRISTIANITY: "But though we, or an Angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." - the apostle Paul, Galatians 1:8-9

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." - the apostle Paul, 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 -- Hehe.. maybe you see my point.

Realize it says a gospel contrary to that which you have received! In other words they had already heard the fullness of the gospel. You could never say that they needed anything else. Which I hear mormon's saying many times. That as a disbeliever in the bom, I won't receive the fullness of heaven.

---next are some quotes that shout invalid at me--

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil - all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet" - Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:408-9
WOW.. ouch. Your telling me NOT even jesus did as great a work at joseph smith. I dont even need to find verses for this.

-- This is my favorite thing I have found today!!
On January 19, 1841 (notice the date!), God said (Doctrine &Covenants 124: 16–17):
Again, let my servant John C. Bennett help you in your labor in sending my word to the kings and people of the earth, and stand by you, even you my servant Joseph Smith, in the hour of afflictions; and his reward shall not fail if he receive counsel.And for his love he shall be great, for he shall be mine if he do this, saith the Lord. I have seen the work he hath done, which I accept if he continue, and will crown him with blessings and great glory. [emphasis added]
Joseph Smith reported in the History of the Church, 5:42-43, the following, quoting his letter to the governor of Illinois:
About the early part of July, 1841, I received a letter from Pittsburg, Pennsylvania; in it was contained information setting forth that said Bennett had a wife and two or three children then living. This I read to him, and he acknowledged it was true. ... It can be proven by hundreds of witnesses that he is one of the basest of liars, and that his whole routine of proceedings, while among us, has been of the basest kind.
So God was just unaware? Or perhaps someone was falsely speaking for God? ;)

--next-

What was the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 and later delivered to him the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated?

Most Mormons believe his name was "Moroni," as reported in modern editions of the Pearl of Great Price (JS-History 1:33).

But in reality The earliest reports by Joseph Smith and others gave his name as "Nephi" (a completely different character in the BoM who supposedly lived a thousand years before Moroni), including the 1851 edition of the PoGP, the 1853 biography of Smith by his mother (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith p 79), and two early Mormon periodicals The Millennial Star 3:53, 71, and Times and Seasons 3:749, 753 (the latter personally edited by Smith himself)

So why change it after the fact? ..well to be honest that happens alot looking at the 1851 edition. I would REALLY REALLY endorse reading the early versions. It will open your eyes if your willing.

Hopefully I made my point that I find SO much skeptism in the prophets of mormonism that I don't believe I could ever trust man more than God. And my gut feeling and intuition says caution...
 
That was probably too harsh... I would like to add that If i somehow was given the gift of faith in the BoM I would follow it in the fervent way I currently follow the orthodox bible. And if this has happened for you, then I realize I have nothing that could persuade you and thats ok... :cool:
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
curiouslyminty said:
That was probably too harsh... I would like to add that If i somehow was given the gift of faith in the BoM I would follow it in the fervent way I currently follow the orthodox bible. And if this has happened for you, then I realize I have nothing that could persuade you and thats ok... :cool:
Yep, nothing could persuade me. Thanks for respecting that.

What website are you getting all this information from? I'm fairly certain that you are not reading through the entire History of the Church, Mormon Doctrine, Pearl of Great Price, Journal of Discourses etc. and pulling out all these obscure quotes on your own. If you are reading all these books cover to cover, I apologize for doubting you. :D

Always consider the source. There are people who make a career out of finding little things to rip on Mormons for. If it makes them happy, more power to them. I personally find it a pathetic waste of time. ;)

Please don't be offended if I don't take the time to debate issues brought up by anti-Mormon authors. I don't mind answering questions that people come up with on their own, but I've found that going through anti-Mormon stuff is an endless cycle. There are posters on the forums that enjoy going through it and disputing it, but I'm not one of them. I just don't think anyone gets anywhere.
 
Top