Abrahamic - Mormons

[spacemonkey]

Pardon me, I naturally thought that a website titled http://www.lds-mormon.com/ was sponsored by the Church of LDS. I thought it was strange for a LDS website to feature an article that pointed out the fact that the founder of your Church was a convicted con man and slept with his friends wives. So are you saying that the article is untrue. I remember an episode of South Park that had the same EXACT stoy in it.

 

[Aqualung]

Pardon me, I naturally thought that a website titled http://www.lds-mormon.com/ was sponsored by the Church of LDS. I thought it was strange for a LDS website to feature an article that pointed out the fact that the founder of your Church was a convicted con man and slept with his friends wives. So are you saying that the article is untrue. I remember an episode of South Park that had the same EXACT stoy in it.

Oh, well if South Park says it, I guess it must be true!
If you want a real page you can go to www.lds.org or www.mormon.org. Notice those both end in ".org"

 

[spacemonkey]

Hey, the fellows who write South Park are equally suspicous of ALL religions. This weeks episode suggested that Scientology is a big, fat, global scam. I could fill a page of their shots at orginized religion.

 

[SoyLeche]

Hey, the fellows who write South Park are equally suspicous of ALL religions. This weeks episode suggested that Scientology is a big, fat, global scam. I could fill a page of their shots at orginized religion.

And they are also known for not exagerating anything. You can trust that anything you see on that show is the truth

 

[Katzpur]

Pardon me, I naturally thought that a website titled http://www.lds-mormon.com/ was sponsored by the Church of LDS.

Which is exactly what you're supposed to think. Clever, huh?

I thought it was strange for a LDS website to feature an article that pointed out the fact that the founder of your Church was a convicted con man and slept with his friends wives. So are you saying that the article is untrue. I remember an episode of South Park that had the same EXACT stoy in it.

It doesn't matter who said something (South Park, a website or anyone else). All that matters is, can the accusations be substantiated with evidence? And in this particular case, the answer is "No."

 

[Katzpur]

It is many years since I read the Book of Mormon and as far as I remember it was Quite unlike the Bible, and the only point of contact with it, seemed to take things from Jesus death till he rose again.

Well, considering the fact that the events described in the Book of Mormon took place (for the most part) on the other side of the world from where the events in the Bible took place, this would be understandable. However, I think it's worth noting that the Book of Mormon mentions Jesus Christ in prophesy some 175+ verses during the first 400 pages of the book. The entire book is centered on Christ, even though the first "point of contact," as you put it, was not until the last hundred or so pages.

This is why I said in another post, I see the LDS as more of a suffix to Christianity, than in competition with it.

I can see, from an objective (but non-antagonistic) outsider's point view that this explanation would pretty much sum it up.

I think the main reason most will not Join the debate, is that like me they have very littlt knowledge of the BOM. The antagnosism to mormons seems to be, in inverse proportion to their understanding of it.

You're absolutely right. People are generally down on those things they're not up on!

However, in the words of our own "Deut":

Though I am far from an expert, the Book of Mormon impresses me as significant in scope and internally consistent. It is clearly enormously successful as scripture, and has been upheld in the face of considerable harrassment and persecution.

He has obviously taken the time to examine the book more thoroughly than most people.

Kathryn

 

[NoName]

The characters in the Book of Mormon are constantly warning each other about "secret combinations" and the like, yet it is a well known fact that Mormonism teaches its followers the secret handshakes and passwords they need to get into heaven. biglaugh: Sorry, another poor joke, but that's all I have right now.)

Spacemonkey - If South Park is all you're going on for your Mormon facts, I guess you'll be converting pretty soon, since South Park has its characters in hell saying that the Mormons were right, that they were the true religion.

 

[nutshell]

The characters in the Book of Mormon are constantly warning each other about "secret combinations" and the like, yet it is a well known fact that Mormonism teaches its followers the secret handshakes and passwords they need to get into heaven. biglaugh: Sorry, another poor joke, but that's all I have right now.)

Spacemonkey - If South Park is all you're going on for your Mormon facts, I guess you'll be converting pretty soon, since South Park has its characters in hell saying that the Mormons were right, that they were the true religion.

And yet, much of what happens in the temple is clearly in the Bible, you just need to know where to look. I think you'll also find that the definition of secret combinations has little to do with handshakes and passwords.

 

[Katzpur]

The characters in the Book of Mormon are constantly warning each other about "secret combinations" and the like, yet it is a well known fact that Mormonism teaches its followers the secret handshakes and passwords they need to get into heaven.

In LDS scripture, the phrase "secret combinations" has a very specific meaning. It has absolutely nothing to do with the esoteric teachings associated with LDS temple worship. The phrase refers to groups of consipirators who plot and initiate "works of darkness" for evil purposes. You will find references to "secret combinations" roughly a dozen and a half times in the Book of Mormon. These four examples are typical:

"secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness..."

"secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil..."

"workers of darkness andsecret combinations, even unto destruction..."

"wicked and secret and abominable combinations..."

Their motives are power and gain, and these they attin by secrecy and conspiracy. They may exist in the form of brotherhoods, groups, societies and governments (ranging all the way from organized crime to child pornography rings to Satanic cults), but they all have one thing in common: doing evil with the intent to control the minds and actions of other people. They will murder, defraud and destroy whatever stands in their way of seizing control.

I'm not sure exactly what you think goes on in LDS temples or worship services, but I can assure you it bears no resemblance to what I've just described. You may wish to do some research on the esoteric rites of first century Christianity before we continue our discussion.

Tag... You're it!

 

[NoName]

And yet, much of what happens in the temple is clearly in the Bible, you just need to know where to look. I think you'll also find that the definition of secret combinations has little to do with handshakes and passwords.

That was the "poor" part of the phrase "poor joke." Sorry if I didn't convey that well enough. Should I have said "POOR " instead?

And, by the way, part of that joke was to imply that they were from the devil, that they were dark and that they were put into place to get gain.

I'm not sure exactly what you think goes on in LDS temples or worship services, but I can assure you it bears no resemblance to what I've just described. You may wish to do some research on the esoteric rites of first century Christianity before we continue our discussion.

Tag... You're it!

I know fairly well what goes on in LDS temples. I didn't tag you. I'm still it, and I know it. I was making a joke. Once again, I appologize for being unclear about that.

 

[Katzpur]

I know fairly well what goes on in LDS temples. I didn't tag you. I'm still it, and I know it. I was making a joke. Once again, I appologize for being unclear about that.

Anyone who wants to know what goes on in LDS temples can find out easily enough these days. Unfortunately knowing what goes on isn't the same thing as understanding the reasons behind it. Don't worry about the joke. I know malicious when I see it and so far, you don't strike me that way at all.

 

[NoName]

The BoM is said to be the most correct of any book. Is the D&C rife with errors? How could a book that is the revelations to Joseph Smith from Christ be less correct than a book that is just a translation (albeit an inspired translation)?

Ether 3:6 says the lord touched the rocks with his finger and they gave forth light. If Jesus was a spirit child of God, like we are, and one of the reasons this earth was created was to give us the opportunity to get a physical body, how did Jesus have a physical body when he wasn't going to come to earth until quite a while later?

 

[Katzpur]

Hey, NoName! You're back! I was starting to miss you. :bounce

The BoM is said to be the most correct of any book. Is the D&C rife with errors? How could a book that is the revelations to Joseph Smith from Christ be less correct than a book that is just a translation (albeit an inspired translation)?

Well, this is just my opinion, but I believe the statement on the Book of Mormon to have been based on the fact that Joseph Smith translated it directly from an original record and not from a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the original record, as was the case when the Bible was translated. So Joseph wasn't comparing original documents; he was comparing the finished product. It was the potential for error in transcribing and translating that He was referring to. He was also (according to our belief ) divinely inspired in translating it. Since it was written in a language that was unknown in 1829, he didn't need to rely on knowledge received through secular training (which he didn't have anyway). Also, I'm not sure, but I suspect that Joseph Smith's statement (about the Book of Mormon being the most correct of any book on earth) was made long before the Doctrine and Covenants was published.

Ether 3:6 says the lord touched the rocks with his finger and they gave forth light. If Jesus was a spirit child of God, like we are, and one of the reasons this earth was created was to give us the opportunity to get a physical body, how did Jesus have a physical body when he wasn't going to come to earth until quite a while later?

He didn't. He had a spirit body. But, if you'll recall (and I think you and I had a discussion about this awhile back on another thread), when Jesus first appeared to His Apostles as a resurrected being (on the first Easter), they were afraid because they thought they were seeing a spirit. We believe that spirit is matter. It is just much more refined matter than matter making up the physical things we can see and feel. If we could see spirits, we would see that they do have a form. A spirit body, then, has a form, but is not corporeal.

Someone sufficiently pure in heart could, with God's permission, conceivably see a spirit boby, which is what happened to the brother of Jared in Ether 3. If you go to verse 9, you will see that Jesus says, "Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so you could not have seen my finger." He continues, and in verse 16 says, "Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh."

Once again, you came up with some excellent questions. They show obvious thought on your part and are not simply cut and pasted from anti-Mormon websites. As always, it's a pleasure to be able to answer them!

 

[NoName]

Hey, NoName! You're back! I was starting to miss you. :bounce

Well, it's tough thinking up material.

Well, this is just my opinion, but I believe the statement on the Book of Mormon to have been based on the fact that Joseph Smith translated it directly from an original record and not from a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the original record, as was the case when the Bible was translated.

So you mean that he meant that the BoM was the most correct translation of any book, rather than the most correct book?

Also, I'm not sure, but I suspect that Joseph Smith's statement (about the Book of Mormon being the most correct of any book on earth) was made long before the Doctrine and Covenants was published.

Oh. :bonk:

He didn't. He had a spirit body. But, if you'll recall (and I think you and I had a discussion about this awhile back on another thread), when Jesus first appeared to His Apostles as a resurrected being (on the first Easter), they were afraid because they thought they were seeing a spirit. We believe that spirit is matter. It is just much more refined matter than matter making up the physical things we can see and feel. If we could see spirits, we would see that they do have a form. A spirit body, then, has a form, but is not corporeal.

Well, then, why the heck is it so important to come to earth to recieve a corporeal body if a spiritual body is similar enough that it has fingers and generally the same appearance as a corporeal body?

Once again, you came up with some excellent questions. They show obvious thought on your part and are not simply cut and pasted from anti-Mormon websites. As always, it's a pleasure to be able to answer them!

Well, thank you! I must say, your answers also show obvious thought. Anybody who says mormons are blind of faith have obviously never met anyone like you!

 

[Katzpur]

So you mean that he meant that the BoM was the most correct translation of any book, rather than the most correct book?

Since Joseph Smith isn't around to clarify what he meant, I'm going to go with my initial assumption and say, "Yes, that's what he had in mind."

Well, then, why the heck is it so important to come to earth to recieve a corporeal body if a spiritual body is similar enough that it has fingers and generally the same appearance as a corporeal body?

As you probably know (since you seem to have a fairly good knowledge of LDS doctrine), we believe that, like His Son, Jesus Christ, God the Father also has a physical body of flesh and bones. This physical body, unlike ours, is immortal. It is corporeal, but not subject to disease or death and is perfect in every way. To the Latter-day Saints, the move from a spirit body (which we had in our pre-mortal life) to a mortal body (which we now have) to an immortal body (which we will have once we are resurrected) is an upward move. Each step brings us closer to being like our Father in Heaven. The middle step (gaining a mortal body) is important because we need to have the experiences only mortals can have. Overcoming temptations of the flesh build character as do trials such as disease, pain, hunger, etc. It's all a part of the process of eternal progression.

I must say, your answers also show obvious thought. Anybody who says mormons are blind of faith have obviously never met anyone like you!

Wow! What a thoughtful compliment! Thank you so much.

 

[NoName]

But why is it a step up in the first place? Why does god have a corporeal body, if a spiritual body is so similar? Maybe it's not the corporeal body that's such a blessing. Maybe it's just a bi-product of being able to come to earth, which god happened to have since he was once on his own little earth.

 

[Katzpur]

But why is it a step up in the first place? Why does god have a corporeal body, if a spiritual body is so similar? Maybe it's not the corporeal body that's such a blessing. Maybe it's just a bi-product of being able to come to earth, which god happened to have since he was once on his own little earth.

At last, NoName, you've stumped me! On the other hand, maybe the value of a corporeal body is simply a matter of opinion.

Unlike some religions, and even some denominations within Christianity, the Latter-day Saints see the human body as God's most wonderful creation. Look at all the incredible things it can do, and look at all the pleasures it can experience! It's a temple where our spirit lives. We could not be co-partners with God in bringing new life into the world without our physical bodies. We don't see these bodies as burdensome or inferior or something that we're anxious to get rid of. But, as I said before, you and others may not share our view of them. In that case, your question is valid, and I have no answer for you.

 

[NoName]

At last, NoName, you've stumped me!

:woohoo:

Unlike some religions, and even some denominations within Christianity, the Latter-day Saints see the human body as God's most wonderful creation. Look at all the incredible things it can do, and look at all the pleasures it can experience! It's a temple where our spirit lives. We could not be co-partners with God in bringing new life into the world without our physical bodies. We don't see these bodies as burdensome or inferior or something that we're anxious to get rid of. But, as I said before, you and others may not share our view of them. In that case, your question is valid, and I have no answer for you.

I certainly see the value of a physical body. But that's because I don't see that christ's spiritual body was essentially just the same as his physical body. But that was certainly a nice discussion. Too bad it didn't end with one of us converting. :biglaugh: But somehow, I don't see that happening to anybody on this forum in any thread.

 

[Katzpur]

:woohoo:

I just love it when I can bring that much joy into somebody's life!

I certainly see the value of a physical body. But that's because I don't see that christ's spiritual body was essentially just the same as his physical body.

Essentially the same in appearance, but not in nature.

But that was certainly a nice discussion. Too bad it didn't end with one of us converting. :biglaugh: But somehow, I don't see that happening to anybody on this forum in any thread.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right about that. Anybody who thinks they're going to convert someone else to their religion on an Internet forum is kidding himself. Besides, your religion is already "all, yet none." Where can you go from there?

 

[NoName]

3 Nephi 15:24 says that the Gentiles won't hear the voice of the Lord. But Joseph Smith heard him.