Abraham was Brahma or Rama?

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

It has been suggested that Biblical Abraham was the same person as Hindu Brahma.

Creators​

The first point is that both Abraham and Brahma were creators in their respective traditions. However, Brahma was the cosmic creator whereas Abraham was only the Patriarch of the Jews. Abraham cannot be said to be the cosmic creator.

In the Vayu Purana (Chapter 8, Verse 1) it is explicitly said that when Brahman (the Supreme Being) wanted to create, then first of all, He created Brahma and then Brahma created sun, moon, water, forests, human beings, etc. Therefore, if at all, Brahma of the Hindus can possibly be compared with Yahweh of the Bible, not with Abraham. The Quran uses the name Allah for the Supreme Being as well as for the Immediate Creator. Ibrahim was neither. Hence Abraham or Ibrahim cannot be the same as Brahma.

Etymology​

It is said that both Abraham and Brahma are descendants of deities relating to sun, water, fire etc. Abraham is connected with the Egyptians Sun God Ra. But such is not said in either the Bible or the Quran.

The names Abraham and Brahma have the common consonants “b”, “r” and “h”. However, the original name of Abraham in the Bible was Ab-ram. There was no “h.” The Biblical tradition says that the original name AbRama was converted to Abraham by inserting “h.” The letter “h” indicates expansion. Thus, “h” was inserted when AbRama graduated from being the Patriarch of his family to being the progenitor of Monotheist Religions. Therefore, the name Abraham is much later development and has no connection what so ever with the cosmic creator Brahma.

Meanings of Names​

The name Brahma is derived from the name Brahman which is correctly written as Brahm ब्रह्म. This is the name of the all-encompassing God comparable with Elohim and the Impersonal Allah. The suffix “a” refers to a progeny. For example, Pankaja means daughter of Pankaj. Therefore, Brahma is the progeny of Brahm and not a progeny of Terah as is Abraham.

Ancestor named Noah​

Abraham and Brahma both have an ancestor named Noah or Hindu Manu. But Brahma was not a descendant of Manu, rather he was the ancestor of Manu. There are two Manu in the Hindu tradition. First is Swayambhu Manu who was the first person or we can call progenitor of the human race. The second Manu was Vaiwaswat Manu who is the descendent of Swayambhu Manu. Thus, Brahman or Brahm > Brahma > Swayambhu Manu > Vaiwaswat Manu > Rama. The flood took place at the time of Vaiwaswat Manu. Biblical Noah concords with Vaiwaswat Manu. Abraham was the descendant of Noah whereas Brahma was the ancestor of his Hindu equivalent Vaiwaswat Manu.

Sister-wife or Daughter-wife​

It is claimed that both had a sister-wide named S-r. Sarah was Abraham’s sister and she became his wife. As far as Brahma is concerned Saraswati was not his sister at all. The story is that Saraswati was his daughter and Brahma impregnated her. Thus, Brahma married Saraswati--his daughter, not his sister.

Chronology​

Modern Scholarships places Abraham at 2000 BCE, Noah (who is same as Vaiwaswat Manu) at 3000 BCE. Thus, Brahma—the ancestor of Noah or Vaiwaswat Manu—would be earlier than 3000 BCE. There is a huge difference in the chronological time.

Abraham is Rama​

Now let us examine the possible correspondence of Biblical Abraham with Hindu Rama on the same points mentioned above.

Creator​

Both Abraham and Rama were not creators.

Etymology​

The original name of Abraham is Ab-Rama which means “father” Ram. This is a direct reference to the name Rama in the Hindu tradition.

Meanings of Names​

No information is available for the meanings of the names Ab-Rama and Ram.

Ancestor named Noah​

Abraham and Rama were both important persons in the long line of their respective ancestors. Abraham was born in the line of Adam and Noah; and was followed by his descendant Moses. Similarly, Rama was born in the line of Swayambhu Manu and Vaiwaswat Manu; and was followed by his cousin Krishna. A minor difference is that Krishna was not blood descendant of Rama but they had common ancestors in Nahusa. They belonged to the same lineage.

Sister-wife​

Abraham having married his sister Sarah is well known. It is less known that according to the Malaysian legend of Rama, Sita was the child of Mandodari from Dasaratha. Thereafter Ravana had thrown Sita into the sea and sent her away and later on she became Rama wife. The Valmiki Ramayana confirms that Sita was born in Lanka and Ravana sent the infant Sita away. Thus, Sita was sister-wife of Rama just as Sarah was.

Chronology​

The time of Abraham is around 2000 BCE and Rama time is also to be between 2400 and 1600 BCE at least according to some astrological calculations, hence the two are common.

Conclusion​

Abraham is the same person as Rama. The association with Brahma is spurious on all lines of evidence.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Since there is no question in the OP, I'll provide a detailed answer to the title.

No.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Since there is no question in the OP, I'll provide a detailed answer to the title.

No.

Pl read the title of the OP.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Pl read the title of the OP.

Why would you assume I didn't?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Why would you assume I didn't?

Ok. My mistake.

 

[Vinayaka]

No. Is Australia just Austria south?

 

[mangalavara]

Etymology​

The original name of Abraham is Ab-Rama which means “father” Ram. This is a direct reference to the name Rama in the Hindu tradition.

Meanings of Names​

No information is available for the meanings of the names Ab-Rama and Ram.

The Hebrew name Abram (or Avram) means ‘Exalted Father’ or ‘Eminent Father.’ The Sanskrit name Rāmaḥ comes from an adjective that has the meanings of ‘pleasing,’ ‘lovely,’ ‘dark colored,’ and ‘white.’ From what I see, the meanings of the Sanskrit rāma and the Hebrew ram are not the same.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

The Hebrew name Abram (or Avram) means ‘Exalted Father’ or ‘Eminent Father.’ The Sanskrit name Rāmaḥ comes from an adjective that has the meanings of ‘pleasing,’ ‘lovely,’ ‘dark colored,’ and ‘white.’ From what I see, the meanings of the Sanskrit rāma and the Hebrew ram are not the same.

Exalted and pleasing are basically similar, in my view. We should not expect exact correspondence after 4 millennia of separation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So, you are back with your non-sense theories. 'Dark-colored and white'? What do you mean here?
What Sanskrit says about Rama is this: 'Ramante iti Ramah' (One who enjoys is Rama).

 

[sun rise]

Abraham is the same person as Rama.

I take both Rama and Abraham as incarnations of the eternal Avatar along with Jesus, Buddha and others. I don't have any source or train of logic but just that the impact on the world seems to indicate that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Pl read the title of the OP.

'Abraham was Brahma or Rama?'
Abraham was none of them. He was a Chaldian who married his sister. He later went to Egypt, and did not mention that his sister was his wife too.
You know what such people are called in English, Rajasthani or Hindi.
"When they entered Egypt, the Pharaoh's officials praised Sarai's beauty to Pharaoh, and they took her into the palace and gave Abram goods in exchange." Abraham - Wikipedia
And Abraham had no problem with that.

 

[mangalavara]

Exalted and pleasing are basically similar, in my view. We should not expect exact correspondence after 4 millennia of separation.

Regarding ‘exalted’ and ‘pleasing’ being similar, I can see that. What is most pleasing to me is something that I would naturally exalt over other things.

 

[River Sea]

The Biblical tradition says that the original name AbRama was converted to Abraham by inserting “h.” The letter “h” indicates expansion. Thus, “h” was inserted when AbRama graduated from being the Patriarch of his family to being the progenitor of Monotheist Religions. Therefore, the name Abraham is much later development and has no connection what so ever with the cosmic creator Brahma.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Could it be Akhenaten who inserted the letter H in Abraham's name because Akhenaten, the Pharaoh of KMT (Egypt), believed in monotheism? I ask this because @Bharat Jhunjhunwala was explaining that the name Abraham was a much later development; could this happen during Akhenaten's era when “h” was inserted?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Could it be Akhenaten who inserted the letter H in Abraham's name because Akhenaten, the Pharaoh of KMT (Egypt), believed in monotheism? I ask this because @Bharat Jhunjhunwala was explaining that the name Abraham was a much later development; could this happen during Akhenaten's era when “h” was inserted?

I don't think the insertion of letter H has anything to do with Akhenaten, but I have no idea because I don't understand, Egyptian names but I thank you for your post.

 

[River Sea]

I don't think the insertion of letter H has anything to do with Akhenaten, but I have no idea because I don't understand, Egyptian names but I thank you for your post.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala I was wondering, as I don't know either.

Because Moses left the Indus Valley but never made it to the Levant, that includes Yisrael, where the KMT increased its area. And the timing: as Akhenaten shared Moses' monotheistic beliefs, some believe Akhenaten was Moses, and if so, Moses may not have died but rather became Pharaoh Akhenaten. Or had died (Moses couldn't have predicted his death to write about). So who had written about Moses' death? Yet if Moses had died, could Akhenaten adapt and continue Moses monotheistic beliefs and add the letter H to Abram?

The name (AB) (Ram) was from the Indus Valley, and the letter (H) was from later, after Moses left the Indus Valley. The "Out of India theory" (OIT)

Thus, “h” was inserted when AbRama graduated from being the Patriarch of his family to being the progenitor of Monotheist Religions.

 

[paarsurrey]

Abraham was Brahma or Rama?

The human beings are inter-related so the languages, please, right?

Regards

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Abraham was Brahma or Rama?

The human beings are inter-related so the languages, please, right?

Regards

Yes. But the time of relation is variant.

 

[GoodAttention]

Rama is mentioned as the son of Cush, along with his 3 brothers Seba/Shesha/Lakshmana, Sabtecah/Shatrughna, and Sabtah/Bharata. It is interesting to see the correlation when you explore the meanings of the names in Hebrew and Sanskrit, particularly the latter two. Nimrod corresponds with Rudra, whilst Havilah does not have any connection to Hindu scriptures but does explains the relationship between the Indus Valley and Egypt.

Abram is Brahma, or at least the Hebrew "idea" of him and what he represented.The connection between the two is symbolic as opposition to the Vedas, and there are many actions that Abram takes to show this. In this sense the name Abram is a cognate of Brahma, just as Adam/Adharm is the cognate of dharma.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Rama is mentioned as the son of Cush, along with his 3 brothers Seba/Shesha/Lakshmana, Sabtecah/Shatrughna, and Sabtah/Bharata. It is interesting to see the correlation when you explore the meanings of the names in Hebrew and Sanskrit, particularly the latter two. Nimrod corresponds with Rudra, whilst Havilah does not have any connection to Hindu scriptures but does explains the relationship between the Indus Valley and Egypt.

Abram is Brahma, or at least the Hebrew "idea" of him and what he represented.The connection between the two is symbolic as opposition to the Vedas, and there are many actions that Abram takes to show this. In this sense the name Abram is a cognate of Brahma, just as Adam/Adharm is the cognate of dharma.

Kush was son of Rama in Hindu text and Cush was father of Rama in the Biblical text. So, how will we reconcile it? I am not against in these similarities in names and I support it, but it has to match with genealogy and chronology. In this case there is no genealogy of Brahma, Brahma is son of Brahman and he has no genealogy whereas Abraham has a long genealogy. Therefore, it simply does not match, but still, we can make connections, as names are our source of evidence.

 

[GoodAttention]

Kush was son of Rama in Hindu text and Cush was father of Rama in the Biblical text. So, how will we reconcile it?

In my studies I have noticed that there isn't always an exact reconciliation between the Sanskrit and Hebrew scriptures, and a small change, such as a son becoming father is common. The Hebrew scriptures do acknowledge Rama having two sons, Sheba and Dedan, which strengthens the identification of this Rama with the Sanskrit text. However this is for geographical and historical correlation only, giving some acknowledgement that Rama existed, even if he is considered to be a man and not a god.

I am not against in these similarities in names and I support it, but it has to match with genealogy and chronology. In this case there is no genealogy of Brahma, Brahma is son of Brahman and he has no genealogy whereas Abraham has a long genealogy. Therefore, it simply does not match, but still, we can make connections, as names are our source of evidence.

More than the names, it is the intent of the character that is important because each scripture is giving a completely different view on what is correct and incorrect.

In the Hebrew scriptures there is only one God, and all other beings are considered subordinate. Abram therefore submits to this God, but in doing so he also rejects the Vedic gods and teaching as his path of righteousness. This is noted specifically with the five yamas that are non-violence (ahimsa), not lying (satya), not stealing (asteya), chastity (brahmacharya), and non-possessiveness (aparigraha). When reading Genesis you will see Abram break each yama by his actions for which a justification is given.

For non-violence, we read how Abram seeks to attack and kill the four kings, however this is to recover his nephew Lot
For not lying we see the many instances where he calls Sarai his sister when she is also his wife, however this is so he won't be killed.
For not stealing we see Abram taking from the four kings the bounty they had stolen from Sodom and Gomorrah, and when asked by Sodom to return the people he declares he will "accept nothing", however he allows his allies to keep the bounty that was stolen
For chastity we see Abram having relations with Hagar out of marriage, however this is with the consent of his wife Sarai.
For non-possessiveness we see Abram being given land to take possession of, however this was from Gods direction.

Further reading Genesis and you can identify where Abram shows adherence to the ten niyamas, meaning not all teaching needed to be rejected, and some were agreed upon, within the context of the Hebrew scriptures. The question to ask is, what is similar and what is different between the stories of Abram and Brahma.