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Abraham and Jesus

Mitty

Active Member
You must learn how to comprehend that which you read Ken,

In my post #95, I wrote the following; "Why do you believe that THE FIRST MEN to who the risen Christ appeared, were Cleophas the husband of Mary and his son Simeon, who succeeded to the episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision after the death of James, the brother of the Lord?

The whole point of the question was to reveal that after Mary had married 'Joseph the son of Jacob,' to who she bore a son who was also named Joseph after his father, she then took another husband named Cleophas (The Masculine form of Cleopatra) who is also called Alphaeus, who is the father of James the brother of the Lord. But apparently, that went right over your head.
But what evidence do you have that Jesus' mother had a sexual relationship with Cleophas, the husband of Mary (John 19:25)?

And why didn't the other gospel writers say that Jesus' mother and her sister rushed down from Nazareth to have a chat with Jesus and Mrs Mary Cleophas and Mary Magdalene and Jesus' lover while he was being executed for sedition?

And why did the other gospel writers say that Mary Magdalene & Mrs Cleophas and Mrs Zebedee only saw Jesus being executed from a distance and said nothing at all about Jesus' mother and his aunt even being there to watch Jesus being executed for sedition (Matt 27:55 Mark 15:40)?

Or are those just imaginary stories?
 
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Riders

Well-Known Member
A Christian Viewpoint.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Colossians 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Genesis 22 King James Version (KJV) 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. 3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ***; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

For us, the Old Testament is a puzzle that creates a shadow that points to the person of Jesus who creates the shadow.

Shadow vs. person

Isaac was a miracle birth child, Jesus was a miracle birth child
Vs 4 - On the third day Abraham lifted his eyes, on the third day Jesus was lifted from the grave
Vs 5 - Abraham expresses faith in the resurrection - the lad and I will go and worship and come again unto you - Jesus said I will be raised again
Vs 8 - God will provide himself a lamb ( a substitution) - Jesus is the Lamb - the substitution
Vs 9 - Isaac could have fought his dad, but was obedient. - Jesus could have called angels to stop the sacrifice but was obedient
Vs 13 - Abraham saw the ram caught in a ticket off thorns caught on his head - Jesus had the thorns place on his head - the very curse for the disobedience of Adam was that the ground would produce thorns and thistles - Jesus was made that curse to redeem man of the curse
Vs 13 - Substitution of the ram for the son - Jesus was the substitution for mankind
Vs 14 - In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen - it is the same mountain - perhaps even a stone throw away from where the Ram was sacrificed and where Jesus was sacrificed.

So we see the very history of Abraham and Isaac as a type and a shadow of the realities of "For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son"

Questions?
I don't believe there's any relation to the new testament from Abraham or Jesus. Those are symbols in all religions, I am sure the Bhagavad Gita has some symbols like that. SO Hare Krishna must have been in the old testament too. The number 3, the miracle birth, belief in resurrection, certain animals all a part of different religious holy books.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You must learn how to comprehend that which you read Ken,

In my post #95, I wrote the following; "Why do you believe that THE FIRST MEN to who the risen Christ appeared, were Cleophas the husband of Mary and his son Simeon, who succeeded to the episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision after the death of James, the brother of the Lord?

The whole point of the question was to reveal that after Mary had married 'Joseph the son of Jacob,' to who she bore a son who was also named Joseph after his father, she then took another husband named Cleophas (The Masculine form of Cleopatra) who is also called Alphaeus, who is the father of James the brother of the Lord. But apparently, that went right over your head.
I'm just not sure what point you are trying to make.

In other words, why "the first men" are important. I understand that James was basically the first pastor in Jerusalem.

Yes, Mary married Joseph and after Jesus was born, birthed sons and daughters.

Your position about the second husband must be from one of the books I don't accept.

So, I'm still not understanding how and what this has to do with Abraham and Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I don't believe there's any relation to the new testament from Abraham or Jesus. Those are symbols in all religions, I am sure the Bhagavad Gita has some symbols like that. SO Hare Krishna must have been in the old testament too. The number 3, the miracle birth, belief in resurrection, certain animals all a part of different religious holy books.
What I do know is that Jesus said "Abraham saw me" - and the ram that replaced Isaac is a stone throw away where Jesus was crucified. Synchronicity.
 

Mitty

Active Member
[
What I do know is that Jesus said "Abraham saw me" - and the ram that replaced Isaac is a stone throw away where Jesus was crucified. Synchronicity.
Do you have any unequivocal evidence that Jesus actually said that Abraham saw him? Or is that just another imaginative story written decades after Jesus was executed for sedition?

And do you have any unequivocal evidence that just near Jerusalem Abraham's god ate an old ram that Abraham had butchered as a blood sacrifice instead of his son? Or is that just another imaginative fantasy story?
 
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Mitty

Active Member
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
But do you have any actual evidence that Jesus said that Abraham saw him and had a conversation with Jesus, or is that just imaginative words written 70 years or so after Jesus was executed for sedition?
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But do you have any actual evidence that Jesus said that Abraham saw him and had a conversation with Jesus, or is that just imaginative words written 70 years or so after Jesus was executed for sedition?


Gen 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
2Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,do not pass your servant by.
 

Mitty

Active Member
Gen 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
2Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,do not pass your servant by.
So what has that story got to do with Abraham seeing Jesus and having a conversation with him?

And do you have any actual evidence that Abraham shared a non-kosher meal with a god and had a face to face conversation about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah and Sodom before the god walked down to Gomorrah to count them for itself since it was neither an omniscient or omnipresent type of god (Gen 18). Or is that story just another imaginative fantasy?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So what has that story got to do with Abraham seeing Jesus and having a conversation with him?

And do you have any actual evidence that Abraham shared a non-kosher meal with a god and had a face to face conversation about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah and Sodom before the god walked down to Gomorrah to count them for itself since it was neither an omniscient or omnipresent type of god (Gen 18). Or is that story just another imaginative fantasy?
Again, your statements are becoming irrelevant and immaterial. He talked to Jesus and that was your question. Jesus said "Abraham saw me".

1 + 1 = 2

Unless you want to make it 3.14 and have a coffee with it as you drum up more irrelevant questions and statements.

You don't believe and that is fine. I'm just answering your questions and not trying to convert you.
 

Mitty

Active Member
Again, your statements are becoming irrelevant and immaterial. He talked to Jesus and that was your question. Jesus said "Abraham saw me".
That's your choice if you believe that the bible is irrelevant and immaterial, but do you have any unequivocal evidence that Jesus had a conversation with Abraham? Or are they just imaginative words written 70 years or so after Jesus was executed for sedition?

1 + 1 = 2

Unless you want to make it 3.14 and have a coffee with it as you drum up more irrelevant questions and statements.

You don't believe and that is fine. I'm just answering your questions and not trying to convert you.
In other words you don't have any actual evidence that Jesus had a conversation with Abraham, nor that Abraham shared a meal with a god.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I'm just not sure what point you are trying to make.

In other words, why "the first men" are important. I understand that James was basically the first pastor in Jerusalem.

Yes, Mary married Joseph and after Jesus was born, birthed sons and daughters.

Your position about the second husband must be from one of the books I don't accept.

So, I'm still not understanding how and what this has to do with Abraham and Jesus.

Obviously, the risen Christ would have appeared to his family first, and the fist to see the risen Christ, were his mother, 'the wife of Cleophas' and Mary Magdalene, who is believed to have been the wife of Jesus, as all rabbi's in those days were expected to be married, even though Mary, while looking directly at him, didn't recognise who he was until he spoke her name.

The next to see him, was his father Joseph the son of the renowned father, Alexander Helios, Joseph the Hebrew name for the bio father of Jesus, was also called Cleophas (The masculine form of Cleopatra) which name in Greek means (Father of renown,) who was also the father of James the younger brother of Jesus, and was also called Alphaeus, which is the Aramaic for (Father of renown) also.

Neither Cleophas of his son Simeon the half brother of Jesus, were able to recognise the stranger who had walked with them all the way to Emmaus, until Simon saw the manner in which he broke the bread.

It was then that Cleophas the carpenter and father of Jesus, returned to Jerusalem where the disciples, (Which included Simon Peter and Simon the patriot) had locked themselves in a darkened room.

Opening the door for Cleophas and Simon, Cleophas cried out, "He has risen, he appeared to Simon, (Who was Simon of the house of Mary and the carpenter.).

The only disciple not present that evening was Thomas the twin, although it is not known if he was an actual twin, or whether he just held a striking resemblance to one with who he shared a common parent.

It was not uncommon for men of Galilee in those days to carry three names, one in Hebrew, one in Greek, and one in Aramaic. Thomas=Tau’ma, the Aramaic for twin, is also called Didymus, which is the Greek for twin, he is Thomas/twin, Didymus/twin, Jude, the half-brother of Jesus and the son of the carpenter.

Excerpts from “The Acts of Thomas-Wikipedia.”

Acts of Thomas is a series of episodic Acts (Latin passio) that occurred during the evangelistic mission of Judas Thomas ("Judas the Twin") to India. It ends with his martyrdom: he dies pierced with spears, having earned the ire of the monarch Misdaeus (Vasudeva I) because of his conversion of Misdaeus' wives and a relative, Charisius. He was imprisoned while converting Indian followers won through the performing of miracles.

Thomas is often referred to by his name Judas (his full name is Thomas Judas Didymus), since both Thomas and Didymus just mean twin, and several scholars believe that twin is just a description, and not intended as a name. The manuscripts end "The acts of Judas Thomas the apostle are completed, which he did in India, fulfilling the commandment of him that sent him. Unto whom be glory, world without end. Amen.".

A local tradition of eastern Syria identifies the Apostle Jude with Jude Thomas who was called ‘The Twin’ also known as Thomas (Aramaic), Didymus (Greek), and Jude (Hebrew.)

Knowing that in ART, Thomas Didymus Jude, the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, is depicted with a, carpenter’s rule and square. In "The Acts of Thomas, sometimes called by its full name, "The Acts of Judas Thomas," 2nd-3rd century CE, "The Apostles cast lots as to where they should go, and to Thomas, brother to Jesus fell India. Thomas was taken to King Goddophares the ruler of Indo-Pathian Kingdom as an architect and carpenter by Habban.”

Jude, the brother of the Lord according to the flesh, both having the same father, Joseph-cleophas-Alphaeus, who was the son of Alexander Helios/Heli, but born of different wombs, was called the apostle of many names, as he was also called Thaddaeus and Lebbeaus, the Greek and Aramaic words for ‘courageous.’ So Jude the brother of the Lord is the courageous apostle called ‘The Twin,’ and he should not be confused with the apostle whose actual name was ‘Thomas.’

It was while Cleophas and Simon were talking to the apostles that a figure appeared in the darkened, which they recognised as Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's your choice if you believe that the bible is irrelevant and immaterial, but do you have any unequivocal evidence that Jesus had a conversation with Abraham? Or are they just imaginative words written 70 years or so after Jesus was executed for sedition?

In other words you don't have any actual evidence that Jesus had a conversation with Abraham, nor that Abraham shared a meal with a god.
It's historical

Do you have any evidence that George Washington talked to Benjamin Franklin?
 

Mitty

Active Member
Obviously, the risen Christ would have appeared to his family first, and the fist to see the risen Christ, were his mother, 'the wife of Cleophas' and Mary Magdalene, who is believed to have been the wife of Jesus, as all rabbi's in those days were expected to be married, even though Mary, while looking directly at him, didn't recognise who he was until he spoke her name.
But do you have any evidence that Jesus' mother had a sexual relationship with Cleophas, and that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene like Rock Hudson's marriage to Phyllis Gates, and why Jesus loved one of his disciples instead (John 19:27 21:7)?
 

Mitty

Active Member
It's historical
So what's historical about the story of Abraham sharing a meal with a god and having a face to face discussion about righteous children in Sodom? Do you have any photos or videos, or is that just an imaginative fantasy story in a book?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So what's historical about the story of Abraham sharing a meal with a god and having a face to face discussion about righteous children in Sodom? Do you have any photos or videos, or is that just an imaginative fantasy story in a book?
Do you have any videos of George Washington speaking to Benjamin Franklin?
 

Mitty

Active Member
Do you have any videos of George Washington speaking to Benjamin Franklin?
What on Earth has that got to do with the imaginative fantasy about Abraham sharing a meal with a god and having a face to face discussion about righteous children (Gen 18)? Or are you claiming that Benjamin Franklin was a god?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
What on Earth has that got to do with the imaginative fantasy about Abraham sharing a meal with a god and having a face to face discussion about righteous children (Gen 18)? Or are you claiming that Benjamin Franklin was a god?
Just following your fantasy reasoning.

So, you are saying you have no video and no proof, therefore George Washington never talked to Benjamin Franklin.

Well.. at least we got that settled :D
 

Mitty

Active Member
Just following your fantasy reasoning.

So, you are saying you have no video and no proof, therefore George Washington never talked to Benjamin Franklin.

Well.. at least we got that settled :D
Cool!!! But do you have any evidence that Benjamin Franklin was a god, and if so, do you worship him too?
 
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