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Featured About trinity in Christianity

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Conscious thoughts, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Then you don't understand the issue.

    You assert personal knowledge that God and Jesus are both alive and real.

    If God is real, if Jesus is real, you can show them to me.

    If God is imaginary you can't.

    And you can't.
     
  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That is an article of Muslim faith, not just something they tend to see as polytheism. It is official, dogmatic, unchangeable.
    Islamic view of the Trinity - Wikipedia

    They are absolutely not allowed to think anything else about it other than that the trinity is polytheism. That is true across the board as far as I can discover. Discussing it with Muslims is like discussing with a rock whether rocks are hard. Its not an opinion when you discuss this with Muslims. They are not allowed to change their minds on it, because that would equate to idolatry, a terrible sin in Islam. They provide that Christians with good intentions may be forgiven for this sin but not Muslims, and its still a sin not merely in opinion but in dogmatic fact.
     
  3. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    So everything that is not visible for your eyes can not exist? or is it because God can not be proven?
     
  4. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    May it be that God and Jesus is alive in a different dimention that we do not see with our physical eyes?
     
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    In addition to Augustus link there is this: Trinity > History of Trinitarian Doctrines (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    Formative early Christians are I think very open to gathering the glory of God from all corners of the world. Therefore they begin an exploration of Greek philosophy, including the Platonian. From this they derive over the first two centuries the Trinity, which over the following 3rd and 4th centuries starts to be as a tool used to win converts to the church. So the Trinity begins its life (I think) as an exploration and then becomes a tool to win converts. Finally it becomes dogmatic and lever for controversy. This controversy appeared multiple times over the centuries, but the free flowing and open nature of Christianity never returned. Never again will the Trinity be simply an opinion, unless 'Dogma' is recognized as a flawed human invention, and how likely is that to happen?
     
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  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    If God shows himself to you, he would be breaking his word.


    John 1:18 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)

    No one has ever seen God.
    The only-begotten Son, who is close to the Father’s side, has made him known.

    1 John 4:12 New International Version (NIV)
    No one has ever seen God;
    but if we love one another,
    God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

    Not even Moses, not even Abraham, not even Adam,
    If they did not seen God, how much more you???
    Do you feel yourself LUCKY?


    Hebrews 11:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
    Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.

    By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
     
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  7. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    in the hermetic and gnostic it can be understood as the mind, body, spirit complex. most christians believe that the absolute is only spiritual and has no physical attributes. they also associate this physical to matter and do not consider as a type of energy.
     
  8. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    That is very similar to what i think too, i do not think the physical life is the true life
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the absolute has a physical aspect but it isn't material its constant change, or force, or movement, or vibration. it is ever perpetuating, or active.
     
  10. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I come from a Trinitarian background. Yahweh is the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit is an all pervading force of life, these are all One Truth, and agree in all matters of Truth. One Truth is in three equal but distinct roles in the unity of their Godhood. Two persons and The Spirit are all one God because they agree on all matters Truth.

    Thats what i was taught anyway!
     
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  11. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    My understanding of this is as follows, though I don’t assert my view to be absolutely true; it’s just my view.

    1. The Word is the visible form of God, though which creation was made and interacted with physically. The Word was made flesh (Christ). The Word is God. (Think of it like the Word is God’s body).

    2. The Father is God in Heaven. The omnimax being which none of us can comprehend. (Think of this as God’s mind)

    3. The Holy Spirit is God, working in and through man. The comforter. (Think of this as God’s Spirit, the same which moved on the face of the waters).

    This shouldn’t be confused with modes of God either, nor with Oneness Pentecostalism.
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Yo, Amanaki

    If God is not real then God is imaginary.

    Imaginary gods can be anything the imaginer wants, so they're not a problem.

    If God is real then God has objective existence ─ exists in the world external to the self / nature / the realm of the physical sciences.

    But if we are to look for God in reality, we need to know what we're looking for. We need a definition of God such that if we find a real candidate we can tell whether it's God or not.

    I have found no such definition; and no one appears to have one.

    There are various definitions but they work only for imaginary gods. For example, the purported sentient being involved remains wholly undescribed as a real being, and is to be identified only by [his] purported powers ─ 'creator of the universe', 'eternal', 'all-powerful', 'all-knowing'. No objective test will determine whether a real candidate has any of those qualities, but that, though a problem, is secondary to the lack of any concept of a real entity 'God'.

    Nor is there any coherent concept of 'godness', the real quality that would distinguish a real god from a real false claimant, for example would distinguish God from a superscientist.

    So no one knows what a real god actually is, and accordingly the expression 'a real god' is meaningless. There is no point looking for a real god because we don't know what the expression means.

    (The unicorn, by contrast, is in much better shape ─ if we found a real candidate, we could tell whether it were a unicorn or not.)
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Maybe God and Jesus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster too?

    Physical eyes are no use for seeing them. Only imagination will do the trick.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I used to subscribe to the beliefs of Christendom but the trinity never made any sense to me. Calling it a mystery to cover up the fact that it was incoherent, didn't ever cut it for me.

    To know the very nature of God and to understand the role of the son and the holy spirit is fundamental to being a Christian IMO. Even Jesus said..."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3) We need to "know" "the only true God" and his servant Jesus (Acts of the Apostles 3:13)....but apparently we do not need to "know" the holy spirit in order to attain everlasting life? Why would this ever be the case if they were equal parts of one God?

    When Jesus returned to heaven after his earthly mission was finished, did he assume the role that he had before he came to earth? Was he God before...was he God incarnate on earth....and was he God after his return? If so how does Jesus call his Father "my God" even in heaven? There is obviously no equality between them even in the heavenly realm. (Revelation 3:12)
    Jesus never called the holy spirit "my God". Why?

    Who did the apostles recognize as God? Paul wrote..."...there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:4-6) Again the third equal person of the trinity is missing.....why?

    Exactly...but it masks the true identity of God, merging him with two other "gods". According to Jewish belief, Yahweh was ONE. (Deuteronomy 6:4) There is no trinity in Judaism nor is there any trinity in Islam. There was no trinity in Christianity either until "Christendom" was formed over 300 years after Jesus' death. He and his apostles foretold an apostasy in Christianity and yet Christendom doesn't acknowledge that it ever happened.

    If there is no trinity found in any of the Abrahamic faiths, but we see them in other 'non-Abrahamic' religious systems, what is that indicating? To me it is apparent that it was adopted from non-Christian religious ideas. Seeing the foundations of Roman Catholicism, and how it came to adopt its beliefs from paganism, it is not surprising that an apostate church arose from such weak foundations.

    The question as to whether Jesus Christ is a "deity" is the crux of this whole issue. Jesus is called a "god" in scripture....but we have to remember that in those days and in the Koine Greek language of the day, a "god" was not what Jews believed in. A "god" to the Greeks was simply "a divine mighty one"...which Jesus certainly was....but he was not "THE Almighty God" of Judaism.

    When the Jews ceased to utter the divine name, they took away man's ability to distinguish between "gods".
    In the Bible the word "god" could apply to any person who had divine authority...Jesus certainly had that too.

    So in the true interpretation of the word "god" (theos)...Jesus qualified, but to distinguish Yahweh from all other 'gods', the Greeks used the definite article, "THE". We see this is John 1:1....in the original Greek the definite article is used only once, identifying Yahweh as separate and distinct from the "divine mighty one" (god) Jesus Christ.

    " In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

    Can you see it? The Logos (Jesus) was "with THE God" (ho theos) but the Logos was just "god" ( theos, or "a god") There is no indefinite article in Greek. ("a" or "an")

    This is the one verse that all trinitarians count on to confirm their belief that Jesus is God.....yet it does no such thing. It highlights his divine appointment, but he was 100% human.....a servant, sent by his God on a mercy mission.
     
    #54 Deeje, Mar 29, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
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  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    God says [he] creates evil and tells lies. The bible is clear on the point. So what [he] said wouldn't matter.

    You keep saying [he]'s real but invisible. Worse, [he]'s not even detectable. Our instruments have never found a trace of [him].

    Don't quote the bible here, since we're talking about reality, not stories. What objective test do you propose to demonstrate to me that [he]'s not imaginary?
     
  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    What verse?


    You can quote and I can't?
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Goodness, don't you read your bible?

    Evil:

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

    Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?​

    Lies:

    1 Kings 22:23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”

    2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

    Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

    Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

    Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

    Now back to what we're talking about ─ that demonstration you have that God is NOT imaginary and that Jesus is alive. Where is it?
     
  18. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    See you can quote, imaginary things?
    Why shouldn't I?
    You want an exclusive imaginary quotes?

    When quoting the Bible, you should likewise indicate the version of the Bible
    Even clicking the verse references in blue - hyperlinked would lead me to KJV
    which tells differently.

    This again reminds me of the devil:

    Luke 4:9-10 New International Version (NIV)
    The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. For it is written:

    “‘He will command his angels concerning you
    to guard you carefully;

    The devil can quote the Bible, so can you.
    The thing is, he has the same agenda in doing so.
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I was quoting the bible. The bible itself is not imaginary ─ it's there to be read ─ but as you rightly point out, many of its stories are. For instance, it would be hard to point to any part of the gospels that is relevant and historical.

    And quoting the bible won't solve your problem. An invisible, undetectable god who never says and never does is indistinguishable from an imaginary being. And given there was an historical Jesus at all, he's been dead for 2000 years, near enough. (That would explain why he didn't get to return in the lifetime of some of his hearers, which three of four gospels have him promising to do.)

    So you need that recent photo of God and Jesus to make your case.
     
  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Did Moses see God?
    No he did not, he saw a burning bush and the voice telling him what to do.



    You, sir are not Moses
    I am not Moses
    we are very much less than Moses
    He did not see God, why do you feel you are lucky?

    Apostle Paul did not see Jesus Christ
    The rest of the apostles did
    Apostle Paul heard the voice of the Lord Jesus
    Who are we to have the image of Jesus Christ
    when we are very less than the apostles
    I think apostle Paul deserve to be the first to see Jesus Christ

    But there will be a time when all people will see Jesus.
    Don't ya worry about it - there is an appointed time for everything.
    And he said it so....

    sheepgoats.jpg

    Matthew 25:31-46 New International Version (NIV)
    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
     
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