about the new testament

[Trailblazer]

I've given you a list of fulfilled prophecies, so we're at a stalemate..

If I may interject, I believe that Jesus was 'a Messiah' but not the Messiah of the latter days that the Jews are waiting for. Jesus cannot be that Messiah since He did not fulfill the messianic prophecies that @Rival listed.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some Chabadniks are. So I guess like, 0.01% of Jews? I don't really know what their deal is. They're a very visible group but not by any means the biggest.

Yes, and so he couldn't be the Mashiach because before he died he didn't fulfil any of the messianic prophecies.

So I wonder why this very vocal and pronounced group would imagine he was the messiah.

 

[YoursTrue]

Careful, we do not have the original writings of Josephus, and they were likely corrupted and third hand references and not witnesses of the life of Jesus. No writings of the text of the gospels are known to exist before 50 AD, and the oldest known scrape of text date from the second century AD is the gospel of John, The gospels were compiled, edited and redacted much later. There are absolutely no known records for the existence of Jesus by philosophers, historians nor Roman records living orvisting Palestine during the life of Jesus.

The passage by Tacitus in ~64 AD only referred to the existence of believers in Jesus Christ.

At least you got 64 CE maybe kind of right. As far as the records edited and redacted, might as well say that of the scrolls written by the Jews for the Jews as well, right? As if they didn't take care to transmit them very carefully. They did.
Thanks to you and your put-downs and insistence that what you're saying is right beyond question, I found this interesting article. Let's see what you think about it:

Debunking Geology’s ‘No Flood, Ever’ Theory: Historical Analysis & Bathymetry Evidence on New Maps – The Worldwide Flood

 

[Rival]

So I wonder why this very vocal and pronounced group would imagine he was the messiah.

The same reason many other groups think their leader is some kind of messiah. I don't know why these Chabadniks are given so much attention by Christians when most Jews just ignore them as a weird little sect.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some Chabadniks are. So I guess like, 0.01% of Jews? I don't really know what their deal is. They're a very visible group but not by any means the biggest.

Yes, and so he couldn't be the Mashiach because before he died he didn't fulfil any of the messianic prophecies.

I remember going to synagogue and praying for peace. Reciting the scriptures about peace on earth, etc. Obviously it didn't come. Not even to the Jews among the Jews, meaning the rivalry ( hmm) among the various Jewish groups, but I enjoyed the prophecies. I learned later that Jesus did fulfill them as far as when he was on the earth. Many people are beginning to realize things are "going on" that are truly astounding and frightful for many. Anyway -- whatever -- have a nice day and night.

 

[YoursTrue]

The same reason many other groups think their leader is some kind of messiah. I don't know why these Chabadniks are given so much attention by Christians when most Jews just ignore them as a weird little sect.

They are in the news a lot. They look different, act different. Who knows. And it was a big deal when Reb Schneerson was alive. He still has followers/believers, chabads abound.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some Chabadniks are. So I guess like, 0.01% of Jews? I don't really know what their deal is. They're a very visible group but not by any means the biggest.

Yes, and so he couldn't be the Mashiach because before he died he didn't fulfil any of the messianic prophecies.

Since you don't believe the writings about him in the holy scriptures, you're like many others, including some who claim to be Christian but insist the scriptures really aren't true. lol... or don't believe the mandates written. yeah, well...time will tell, won't it?

 

[YoursTrue]

The same reason many other groups think their leader is some kind of messiah. I don't know why these Chabadniks are given so much attention by Christians when most Jews just ignore them as a weird little sect.

Many people claim to believe in Jesus, they don't follow in his footsteps, creating and causing wars between themselves and others.

 

[Rival]

Since you don't believe the writings about him in the holy scriptures, you're like many others, including some who claim to be Christian but insist the scriptures really aren't true. lol... or don't believe the mandates written. yeah, well...time will tell, won't it?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I gave earlier in this thread the list of messianic prophecies that the messiah is meant to fulfill (post 91). Jesus didn't fulfill them. My beliefs here are irrelevant.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'll just cut to the chase here.

Here are the messianic prophecies, you can tell me which Jesus fulfilled:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13 (Samuel)
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

OK, one at a time. First of all, do you consider yourself as part of God's people? It says that God will appoint a place for HIS people --- Israel. What do you believe about that prophecy, either as referring to others or yourself? Some people believe that since the nation was mandated to be for the Jews after WW2 in recent times that is part of messianic fulfillment. Let's start there.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I gave earlier in this thread the list of messianic prophecies that the messiah is meant to fulfill (post 91). Jesus didn't fulfill them. My beliefs here are irrelevant.

A person's beliefs are absolutely relevant. Furthermore, I went back and began with your first item about restoring Israel. How do you feel about that, in part?
Speaking of what a person professes to be part of and what he believes is absolutely integral to be whole, meaning if a person belongs to a religion but doesn't believe the basis for it then he is either afraid (as many are in certain parts of the world), or is a hypocrite.

 

[Rival]

OK, one at a time. First of all, do you consider yourself as part of God's people? It says that God will appoint a place for HIS people --- Israel. What do you believe about that prophecy, either as referring to others or yourself? Some people believe that since the nation was mandated to be for the Jews after WW2 in recent times that is part of messianic fulfillment. Let's start there.

A person's beliefs are absolutely relevant. Furthermore, I went back and began with your first item about restoring Israel. How do you feel about that, in part?
Speaking of what a person professes to be part of and what he believes is absolutely integral to be whole, meaning if a person belongs to a religion but doesn't believe the basis for it then he is either afraid (as many are in certain parts of the world), or is a hypocrite.

I'm a Kemetic Pagan. My beliefs have literally nothing to do with this scripture.

I'm asking you straightforwardly, how can Jesus be the messiah if he didn't fulfill the above prophecies?

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm a Kemetic Pagan. My beliefs have literally nothing to do with this scripture.

I'm asking you straightforwardly, how can Jesus be the messiah if he didn't fulfill the above prophecies?

I am asking you about the first scripture you present. Many people believe that all the prophecies should have been fulfilled when Jesus was on the earth. In order to understand more about this, there is a natural Israel (those born into the Jewish religion or covenant, depending on how you look at it) and a spiritual Israel. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies but one must look at them properly. He gave his apostles instructions after his resurrection. Perhaps you remember this, so the question I asked you about what you believe about Israel is relevant, but you don't have to answer it. So we need to start at the beginning of your comments as far as I am concerned. Hopefully you can look at this article which explains more about fulfilling messianic prophecies:
Messianic Prophecies—Was Jesus the Messiah? What does “Messiah” mean? (jw.org)

 

[YoursTrue]

If I may interject, I believe that Jesus was 'a Messiah' but not the Messiah of the latter days that the Jews are waiting for. Jesus cannot be that Messiah since He did not fulfill the messianic prophecies that @Rival listed.

It depends really how God views Israel.
There is a spiritual as well as a fleshly Israel. So one must take it in context.
"The Bible speaks of “Israel in a fleshly way” (1Corinthians 10:18), as well as spiritual Israel made up of those for whom descent from Abraham is not a requirement. (Matthew 3:9) The apostle Paul, when using the expression “the Israel of God,” shows that it has nothing to do with whether one is a circumcised descendant of Abraham or not.--Galatians 6:15, 16." (bold and underlining mine)
Israel of God — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)
The prophecies are developing in their fulfillment.

 

[shunyadragon]

At least you got 64 CE maybe kind of right. As far as the records edited and redacted, might as well say that of the scrolls written by the Jews for the Jews as well, right? As if they didn't take care to transmit them very carefully. They did.

The Dead Sea scrolls demonstrate are the editing and redaction of text in history.

Thanks to you and your put-downs and insistence that what you're saying is right beyond question, I found this interesting article. Let's see what you think about it:

Debunking Geology’s ‘No Flood, Ever’ Theory: Historical Analysis & Bathymetry Evidence on New Maps – The Worldwide Flood

The worst possible non-scientific source justified by a warped religious agenda.

 

[Dropship]

Jesus is the messiah because he said so isn't a good defence. I've given you a list of prophecies about Mashiach he never fulfilled, so what is your answer?

You're simply putting your own twist on the prophecies mate, for examp here's the one spoken by Zechariah in 500 BC about Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey-
"Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on
a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey" (Zech 9:9)
but you said-
"Matthew has Jesus riding two donkeys. It's also very easy to make this up"

I also pointed out that Jesus himself said he was the Messiah, but you replied-
"The Christian Testament means nothing to me."
See my point? you're playing the usual nonchristian/atheist "myth" card.

Heck, the whole of Jerusalem saw Jesus's entry, that's a lot of eyewitnesses..

 

[Dropship]

If I may interject, I believe that Jesus was 'a Messiah' but not the Messiah of the latter days that the Jews are waiting for. Jesus cannot be that Messiah since He did not fulfill the messianic prophecies that @Rival listed.

You and Rival had better argue it out with Jesus when you meet him..

 

[shunyadragon]

You're simply putting your own twist on the prophecies mate, for examp here's the one spoken by Zechariah in 500 BC about Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey-
"Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on
a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey" (Zech 9:9)
but you said-
"Matthew has Jesus riding two donkeys. It's also very easy to make this up"

I also pointed out that Jesus himself said he was the Messiah, but you replied-
"The Christian Testament means nothing to me."
See my point? you're playing the usual nonchristian/atheist "myth" card.

Heck, the whole of Jerusalem saw Jesus's entry, that's a lot of eyewitnesses..

View attachment 56327

There are no independent records of any such event concerning Jesus in Jerusalem. In fact there is absolutely no independent records of the existence of Jesus during his life.

In and atound the time Jesus lived there were a number of Jews claiming to be the Messiah. In fact a few led revolts against Rome.

Again careful claiming historical records for the life of Jesus . . .

Careful, we do not have the original writings of Josephus, and they were likely corrupted and third hand references and not witnesses of the life of Jesus. No writings of the text of the gospels are known to exist before 50 AD, and the oldest known scrape of text date from the second century AD is the gospel of John, The gospels were compiled, edited and redacted much later. There are absolutely no known records for the existence of Jesus by philosophers, historians nor Roman records living or visiting Palestine during the life of Jesus.

The passage by Tacitus in ~64 AD only referred to the existence of believers in Jesus Christ.

. . .

 

[Dropship]

There are no independent records of any such event concerning Jesus in Jerusalem. In fact there is absolutely no independent records of the existence of Jesus during his life...

If that's the case, why didn't anybody from the priests, the Romans or the people ever come forward when the first gospels were written to say "Baloney, it never happened!"?

 

[shunyadragon]

If that's the case, why didn't anybody from the priests, the Romans or the people ever come forward when the first gospels were written to say "Baloney, it never happened!"?

Does not address the problem . . .

Careful, we do not have the original writings of Josephus, and they were likely corrupted and third hand references and not witnesses of the life of Jesus. No writings of the text of the gospels are known to exist before 50 AD, and the oldest known scrape of text date from the second century AD is the gospel of John, The gospels were compiled, edited and redacted much later. There are absolutely no known records for the existence of Jesus by philosophers, historians nor Roman records living orvisting Palestine during the life of Jesus.

The passage by Tacitus in ~64 AD only referred to the existence of believers in Jesus Christ.