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...about killing babies.

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
No one supports abortion.

What does the Bible say?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Now, then. What does God say?

Therefore, choose life... God does not say, God speaks of choice, that both thou and thy seed may live and of progeny perhaps not sewn.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No one supports abortion?!

You should have posted this in the Christian DIR, shouldn't you?
What if i don't believe in the bible?
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend ellen,

What does Science say:
Evolve??
how??
by living.[live & let live]

Love & rgds

n.b. The point missed here is that society/govt. should allow the individual to make the choice as it is his action which will bring any reaction to him alone.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
My brother in vibration, greetings...

The God of the Bible quite frequently refers to natural progression, as a determinant for what is right, in areas where the law is either vague, or unequipped to foresee. Anybody really believe that a bunch of disparate nomads could even conceive of seven billion people, from their barren, desert perspective? Of course not. And what takes the place of the tribe but the family, the availability of counseling? Thus, choice; one that not only must the mother bear the moral weight, but the society of the mother.

This we do, in consideration of population pressures, teenage angst; emotionally stunted future adults (such as I) raised into situations where perhaps the wrong choice was made.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
When someone says "I support abortion", isn't it obviously implied that this person supports choice over abortion?

We don't do, "obviously implied." We do - precise diction.

Sometimes. But saying "I support choice" says much more, implies much less, than "I support abortion." ;)
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
No one supports abortion. I support choice.

Why do people say that they support abortion?

Do they really not support abortion even though they say that they do, opting for an opinion that differs from your own?

It seems to me we have a classic case of projection here: you assume that because you distinguish between supporting abortion and supporting choice means that everyone thinks like you. Obviously this cannot be the case because not everyone has your mind.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
We don't do, "obviously implied." We do - precise diction.

Sometimes. But saying "I support choice" says much more, implies much less, than "I support abortion." ;)

You have to consider the informal use. Most people are not very formal in the use of language during a conversation. For example, when i say "I eat meat." , it is implied that i eat "nonhuman meat".

There is a lot of implied content in our daily conversations. :)
In other words, saying "I support abortion" and "I support choice [over abortion]" has the same meaning in the informal talks. Now, if you were to write a book or an essay about this, then you would have to use precise diction. Or do you see any clear difference between both sentences worth note?
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Why do people say that they support abortion?

Do they really not support abortion even though they say that they do, opting for an opinion that differs from your own?

It seems to me we have a classic case of projection here: you assume that because you distinguish between supporting abortion and supporting choice means that everyone thinks like you. Obviously this cannot be the case because not everyone has your mind.

Not at all. I can say I support abortion; but I choose not to say that I support a particular, and personal, choice. That I prefer an option be taken.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
No one supports abortion.

What does the Bible say?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Now, then. What does God say?

Therefore, choose life... God does not say, God speaks of choice, that both thou and thy seed may live and of progeny perhaps not sewn.

That verse has nothing to do with abortion.

Nothing in the Bible directly has any bearing on abortion. It is all a matter of indirect inference, and therefore, entirely subject to interpretation. There is room in the text to interpret it as restricting abortion, but there is equal room to interpret it as not restricting abortion. Both positions have developed in Jewish Law, and both are supportable.

But they are equally matters of interpretation. It is disingenuous to pick a verse entirely out of context, decide that it kind of sounds like it might support one's pet position, and declare that that single interpretation is the inerrant word of God.

Especially, as I have pointed out in other places, when that entire text is a translation taken out of the context not only of its original language, but of the whole cultural tradition that authored it.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
You have to consider the informal use. Most people are not very formal in the use of language during a conversation. For example, when i say "I eat meat." , it is implied that i eat "nonhuman meat".

There is a lot of implied content in our daily conversations. :)
In other words, saying "I support abortion" and "I support choice [over abortion]" has the same meaning in the informal talks. Now, if you were to write a book or an essay about this, then you would have to use precise diction. Or do you see any clear difference between both sentences worth note?

I have made a measure of advancement in spiritual maturity - call it spiritual maturity because I have been sloppy with the science - that clarity of conception clears clutter from the cranium.

And yeah, I do, see a difference. To abort or not to abort, that is the choice. Because I am not a potential mother, I don't consider it my choice to make. The choice of supporting choice, is one made after much deliberation, consideration; and is one of clarity.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
That verse has nothing to do with abortion.

Nothing in the Bible directly has any bearing on abortion. It is all a matter of indirect inference, and therefore, entirely subject to interpretation. There is room in the text to interpret it as restricting abortion, but there is equal room to interpret it as not restricting abortion. Both positions have developed in Jewish Law, and both are supportable.

But they are equally matters of interpretation. It is disingenuous to pick a verse entirely out of context, decide that it kind of sounds like it might support one's pet position, and declare that that single interpretation is the inerrant word of God.

Especially, as I have pointed out in other places, when that entire text is a translation taken out of the context not only of its original language, but of the whole cultural tradition that authored it.

Are you the prophet? Kidding, we need not go there. ;)

Presenting scripture as factual moral guideline is a technique acquired from my Christian contemporaries; manipulators far more disingenuous than I...

There is room in the text to interpret it as restricting abortion, but there is equal room to interpret it as not restricting abortion.

Choice. I chose not to make god say something he did not say; I chose to present the view that what the Bible says does not speak louder than what God says. And the whole cultural tradition that authored it, is but a hundredth of the whole cultural tradition that is abusing it; to the detriment of all.

But you are Levite, and I respect both your scholarship and dedication. If you wish to instruct me, I am never too knowing to learn.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I have made a measure of advancement in spiritual maturity - call it spiritual maturity because I have been sloppy with the science - that clarity of conception clears clutter from the cranium.

And yeah, I do, see a difference. To abort or not to abort, that is the choice. Because I am not a potential mother, I don't consider it my choice to make. The choice of supporting choice, is one made after much deliberation, consideration; and is one of clarity.

And what is the difference between saying "I support choice [over abortion]" and "I support abortion"? You have only explained what the former means.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Presenting scripture as factual moral guideline is a technique acquired from my Christian contemporaries; manipulators far more disingenuous than I...

Fair enough! I cannot argue with that!

Choice. I chose not to make god say something he did not say; I chose to present the view that what the Bible says does not speak louder than what God says.

Well, that's the thing, though. It is by no means clearly decided (outside of radical fundamentalist circles) that any part of the Bible is, in fact, the literal word of God at all. Even to those who believe that God dictated much of the Torah to Moses, or had conversation directly with the prophets, there is still the acknowledgement that God's words had to be understood and set down accurately by flawed, imperfect human agents, and transmitted through the ages by even more flawed, imperfect human agents. Add to that the core concept in Jewish thought that the Torah is infinitely interpretable, and has limitless levels of meaning. What results is quite a lot of lattitude for possibilities, both in terms of arguing what God may want from us, and in arguing what God has not spoken to us about.

The problem, IMO, is not folks claiming that such-and-such a verse in the Bible does or does not support the idea that God wishes us to be prohibited from X or encouraged to do Y, but in claiming that said verse can only be interpreted to mean that, and that that single intepretation is the precise and literal command of God.

And in any case, it is hard to say that there is an objective word of God outside of the scriptures that we have, with which scripture might be unfavorably compared, which might be clearer or more comprehensible to us. At least, such a word would not seem to be accessible to us on this plane of existence.

My father's rabbi, who was his head-of-yeshiva, commenting on Psalm 19:8 Torat YHVH temimah, meshivat nafesh... ("The Torah of YHVH is perfect, refreshing the soul...") said, "Yes, the Torah of Hashem is perfect, that remains with Him, in the Heavens. The Torah we have is only a reflection of that, the only kind suitable to our imperfect universe." Perhaps we can know the Torah of God in the World To Come, but not in this world, I think. For this world, we have only what has been passed down to us, and our own abilities to interpret it.

And the whole cultural tradition that authored it, is but a hundredth of the whole cultural tradition that is abusing it; to the detriment of all.

Perhaps let's say that the whole cultural tradition that authored it is but a hundredth of the traditions that are using it. To be fair, among its original cultural tradition it is only sometimes abused, and even among the traditions that have appropriated for their own uses, it is not always abused.

But you are Levite, and I respect both your scholarship and dedication. If you wish to instruct me, I am never too knowing to learn.

That is extremely high praise, and I thank you for it very much, and can only hope to live up to it!
 

Alceste

Vagabond
In fairness, family planning advocates generally do prefer to call themselves "pro-choice" (inferring that their opponents are "anti-choice"), just as their opponents generally prefer "pro-life" (inferring that we are "anti-life"). Very few people use the terms pro- or anti-abortion. I think we all agree abortion is an unfortunate fact of life. We just disagree on where to go from there.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
And what is the difference between saying "I support choice [over abortion]" and "I support abortion"? You have only explained what the former means.

Saying "I support abortion" would simply be inaccurate. I support birth control and comprehensive, accurate sex education before puberty kicks in. When all else fails and accidents occur, I realize that many women who are not ready to be mothers will try to do something about it. I prefer safe, legal abortions performed by medical professionals to back alley butchers and DIY jobs with household chemicals or coat hangers, or throwing yourself down the stairs, or getting punched in the stomach. Ideally, though, people would just make friends with condoms.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Choice + sex education/condoms + social justice = pro life.

Fairly simple really. If you really are against abortions you should take all your time, passion, energy and money and support programs for sex education and social justice because those are demonstrated to actually reduce abortions.

Moralizing about it and making it illegal, OTOH, have been demonstrated to have no effect on the rate at which it occurs and a demonstrably negative effect on the rate of death and serious injuries.

Thus, what people are calling "pro life" is actually anti-life and anti-sex. Pro-choice - when combined with pro-sex education and pro-social justice - IS pro-life. It reduces abortions and it makes the ones that occur much safer.

God agrees. She has spoken to us through our research.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Alceste said:
In fairness, family planning advocates generally do prefer to call themselves "pro-choice" (inferring that their opponents are "anti-choice"), just as their opponents generally prefer "pro-life" (inferring that we are "anti-life"). Very few people use the terms pro- or anti-abortion. I think we all agree abortion is an unfortunate fact of life. We just disagree on where to go from there.

IMO, it is all a big nitpicking.

Saying "I support abortion" would simply be inaccurate. I support birth control and comprehensive, accurate sex education before puberty kicks in. When all else fails and accidents occur, I realize that many women who are not ready to be mothers will try to do something about it. I prefer safe, legal abortions performed by medical professionals to back alley butchers and DIY jobs with household chemicals or coat hangers, or throwing yourself down the stairs, or getting punched in the stomach. Ideally, though, people would just make friends with condoms.

Doesn't this mean you support abortion in certain cases?
I don't see how "pro-choice" implies anything other than choice over abortion. Sex education and other birth control means can be defended by both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" ,or not.
 
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