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About fossils -- would you say this is true?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
all right. Let me give you an example. I've seen pictures of bones within a cave. Seemingly on the floor of the cave. So how is a date arrived at?
I would not know. There could be several ways. Bones in a cave are going to be very recent. So in this case the bones themselves could be dated. Human bones are not always fossilized. They may be just bones. Unburied bones are almost certainly just bones. For bones that are very recent, less than 50,000 years, we can use carbon dating. C14 is naturally occurring radioactive element and it can be used for dating recent life. Fossils tend to be too old to date.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I would not know. There could be several ways. Bones in a cave are going to be very recent. So in this case the bones themselves could be dated. Human bones are not always fossilized. They may be just bones. Unburied bones are almost certainly just bones. For bones that are very recent, less than 50,000 years, we can use carbon dating. C14 is naturally occurring radioactive element and it can be used for dating recent life. Fossils tend to be too old to date.
When I was in college I remember learning that cave drawings were found that were about 10,000 years old. Showing somehow that mankind was at least 10,000 years old, I think the number of years was updated since then. So the question remains -- these drawings -- etched into the wall of the cave -- did they date the cave? Because clearly it could not have been fossils. A lot of questions I didn't know to ask when I was in school.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
When I was in college I remember learning that cave drawings were found that were about 10,000 years old. Showing somehow that mankind was at least 10,000 years old, I think the number of years was updated since then. So the question remains -- these drawings -- etched into the wall of the cave -- did they date the cave? Because clearly it could not have been fossils. A lot of questions I didn't know to ask when I was in school.


Why don't you Google search it yourself? It may be possible to date the drawings themselves if they used a formerly living source that had carbon in it. In fact here is the first article I found after typing "dating cave paintings":

The dating game. How do we know the age of Palaeolithic cave art? - Sruk

They sampled the charcoal used to make the drawings and dated that using C14 dating.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why don't you Google search it yourself? It may be possible to date the drawings themselves if they used a formerly living source that had carbon in it. In fact here is the first article I found after typing "dating cave paintings":

The dating game. How do we know the age of Palaeolithic cave art? - Sruk

They sampled the charcoal used to make the drawings and dated that using C14 dating.
I did a google search after I posted and fnd that the last woolly mammoths are said to have existed about 4500 years ago.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why don't you Google search it yourself? It may be possible to date the drawings themselves if they used a formerly living source that had carbon in it. In fact here is the first article I found after typing "dating cave paintings":

The dating game. How do we know the age of Palaeolithic cave art? - Sruk

They sampled the charcoal used to make the drawings and dated that using C14 dating.
I wonder how and if they dated these fossils from China:
How Fake Fossils Pervert Paleontology [Excerpt] - Scientific American
 

gnostic

The Lost One
When I was in college I remember learning that cave drawings were found that were about 10,000 years old. Showing somehow that mankind was at least 10,000 years old, I think the number of years was updated since then. So the question remains -- these drawings -- etched into the wall of the cave -- did they date the cave? Because clearly it could not have been fossils. A lot of questions I didn't know to ask when I was in school.

Paintings on the cave walls were often done with

(A) carbon from burned woods, hence charcoal,

(B) or with natural earth pigments, such as mixture of clay and iron oxides, and these pigments are known as ochre; ochre ranged in colors from yellow, red and brown.​

The natural color of ochre, depends on -
  • if the iron oxide-hydroxides have been “hydrated”, and you get limonite, hence the pigment is referred to as yellow ochre,
  • or if it is “anhydrous iron oxide”, you’d get hematite, red ochre,
  • or if there are presence of certain amounts of manganese oxide in brown ochre in “partially hydrated” iron oxides, of which there are two varieties:
    • sienna (less than 5% manganese oxide)
    • umber
You can get reddish brown ochre by dehydrating, by heating natural sienna or umber, to get burnt sienna or burnt umber.

You would carbon date whatever pigments that are present in the paint. You wouldn’t date the cave itself, because that would only date the rocks of the caves.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Paintings on the cave walls were often done with

(A) carbon from burned woods, hence charcoal,

(B) or with natural earth pigments, such as mixture of clay and iron oxides, and these pigments are known as ochre; ochre ranged in colors from yellow, red and brown.​

The natural color of ochre, depends on -
  • if the iron oxide-hydroxides have been “hydrated”, and you get limonite, hence the pigment is referred to as yellow ochre,
  • or if it is “anhydrous iron oxide”, you’d get hematite, red ochre,
  • or if there are presence of certain amounts of manganese oxide in brown ochre in “partially hydrated” iron oxides, of which there are two varieties:
    • sienna (less than 5% manganese oxide)
    • umber
You can get reddish brown ochre by dehydrating, by heating natural sienna or umber, to get burnt sienna or burnt umber.

You would carbon date whatever pigments that are present in the paint. You wouldn’t date the cave itself, because that would only date the rocks of the caves.
Well, from that explanation, and I thank you for that, it seems to me that a true date of when the paintings were made cannot be determined.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well, from that explanation, and I thank you for that, it seems to me that a true date of when the paintings were made cannot be determined.
Why not?


You may be making a black and white fallacy here. We can date drawings done with charcoal. It mean it is possible that someone in a cave stumbled upon some 10,000 year old charcoal, But it would be far more likely that he knew where the charcoal was because he made the fire.

For other materials there may be different ways to date them . I can't say, that is well outside of my area of expertise. But just because I cannot name a dating method does not mean that one does not exist.

To be accurate you should have said: "Some cave drawings can be dated, but some may not be able to be dated with the present technology."
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why not?


You may be making a black and white fallacy here. We can date drawings done with charcoal. It mean it is possible that someone in a cave stumbled upon some 10,000 year old charcoal, But it would be far more likely that he knew where the charcoal was because he made the fire.

For other materials there may be different ways to date them . I can't say, that is well outside of my area of expertise. But just because I cannot name a dating method does not mean that one does not exist.

To be accurate you should have said: "Some cave drawings can be dated, but some may not be able to be dated with the present technology."
Different ways to date the drawings?? We're talking also about the soil particles and substances used both as part of the fossils but now about the materials used in the drawings themselves.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why not?


You may be making a black and white fallacy here. We can date drawings done with charcoal. It mean it is possible that someone in a cave stumbled upon some 10,000 year old charcoal, But it would be far more likely that he knew where the charcoal was because he made the fire.
Huh? Possible that someone in a cave stumbled upon some 10,000 year old charcoal? Your last sentence doesn't make sense. OK, have a nice day/morning--still dark here but it's the same 'day' as last night. Take care. Be careful and try to answer reasonably. Thanks.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Subduction Zone - Evolution: A Theory in Crisis Revisited (Part One of Three) | Michael Denton | Inference (inference-review.com)
I'm sure you've heard of Michael Denton. Have you decided whether he has a mind trained in science that can comprehend and evaluate the theoretical situation regarding evolution of so-called natural selection. Since the discussion may not be about fossils, once you read and respond to this point, I may start a new thread on the topic. Thanks.
Well, since evolution is not in crisis why even bring this up? And no, he cannot honestly discuss the topic. He is a biochemist. He is not a paleontologist. And that book was written almost forty years ago. It was wrong then and it is incredibly wrong now.

Worse yet for you he accepts the fact of evolution. He knows that you and I are apes. So how does his "God had to help evolution" help you?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Different ways to date the drawings?? We're talking also about the soil particles and substances used both as part of the fossils but now about the materials used in the drawings themselves.
No, you are confused again. Your arguments are all over the place. Cave drawings have nothing to do with fossils.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Huh? Possible that someone in a cave stumbled upon some 10,000 year old charcoal? Your last sentence doesn't make sense. OK, have a nice day/morning--still dark here but it's the same 'day' as last night. Take care. Be careful and try to answer reasonably. Thanks.
Possible, but highly unlikely. What part didn't you understand?
 
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