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Featured Abortion

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jillian Lowe, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Jillian Lowe

    Jillian Lowe New Member

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    If you are for abortion, do you still recognize that the child has a beating heart and is a human being?
     
  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Is there any reason why you have to make so many different accounts?
     
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  3. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    No. I do not define a foetus with no EEG activity in the brain to be a living organism. A heartbeat isn't a sure-fire indicator of life.
     
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  4. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    I am for the right of women to obtain safe, legal abortions in early term. That is not the same as being for abortion. I have no opinion regarding whether any given pregnant woman chooses to carry her fetus to term or aborts it. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't want to have an abortion were the matter personally relevant (I am male), but I suspect that I would have gotten one under many circumstances, and felt badly about it. I hate killing even cockroaches, but I do that, too, when I find them in the home unless I can capture them, which is rare.

    I don't consider any of the following factors in deciding for or against an abortion:

    The fetus is human
    The fetus has a beating heart.
    The fetus is alive.
    Some people call a fetus a person, child or baby.
    Some people call legal abortion murder.

    The only relevant factors are that the abortion be relatively early in the gestation, that it be safe and legal, and that the mother makes the decision, not the state or the church using the state.
     
    #4 It Aint Necessarily So, Feb 13, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  5. rocala

    rocala Active Member

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    Is there any reason she thought nobody would notice?
     
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  6. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I do recognize that some human beings are too young to have a heartbeat. And that the majority of elective abortions are committed at that early stage.

    If you oppose elective abortions, do you support solid methods of prevention? Methods like comprehensive sex ed, starting at an early age? Solid funding for organizations like Planned Parenthood, with their efforts to prevent abortions?
    Or do you help facilitate crisis pregnancy with nonsense like "purity rings" and "abstinence only" sex ed?
    Tom
     
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  7. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    It depends. A one hour embryo is a bunch of cells that you would have problem to distinguish from the equivalent bunch of cells of an amoeba.

    So, we have two cases

    1) you are in general opposed to abortion. But then you should make a case for embryos without any heart. Like that bunch of cells. I know it is less dramatic and emotional, but you will have to do it

    2) you are just against aborting advanced embryos. But in this case, you would not be in general against abortion, only to abortion after a certain age of the embryo

    So, what are you?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    If you're against abortion, do you still recognize that a pregnant person has a beating heart and is a human being?
     
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  9. DavidMcCann

    DavidMcCann Well-Known Member

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    1. A pig has a beating heart, but that won't stop me eating pork tonight.
    2. The statement that a fetus is a "child" and a "human being" is tendentious. Orthodox Jews do not accept it, for example. It was only added to Catholic doctrine a couple of centuries ago; Aquinas believed that quickening was the time when the soul entered the body.
     
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  10. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    I am against justifying an abortion at any stage by saying that it doesn't have some quality (like brain waves or heart beat) that it WILL HAVE if it is not aborted.

    I've never understood that reasoning, frankly. It struck me as disingenuous and flawed the first time I ever heard it, and it hasn't improved in the years since.

    It's sophistry and circular reasoning taken to the ridiculous.

    My own opinion is that abortion is the killing of a human, no matter what stage of development it happens to be in, just as infanticide is the killing of a human, even though the infant is not an adult.

    The point is, that if...left to develop on its own, a human WOULD BE a human adult eventually, then it is specious to argue that it's permissible to kill him/her BECAUSE it doesn't have certain qualities YET.

    It's....like saying that it is OK to kill the heir to a fortune before he can claim it BECAUSE he hasn't claimed it yet. Lousy logic. Lousy reasoning.

    There are, IMO, of course, times when aborting a pregnancy is ...not OK...never "OK," but permissible/required/ a tragic necessity. When the mother's life/health is at risk. When there is no chance for the fetus to survive outside the womb...and those decisions should be between the mother and the doctor. The rules for this should be about the same as when one must make any choice between two lives; when it is, for instance, a choice between saving one or losing both...triage. But 'convenience?" or "I changed my mind about being pregnant," or "oops..." ? No.

    But when an abortion is required; when it is done, one IS ending a human life that might well have reached human adulthood...unless it is killed first.

    My views on abortion are actually a bit stricter than those taught by my religion, for ME. I would not, for instance, abort a baby conceived as the result of rape. I would consider that child the only good thing to come of the experience. I also understand that I'm fairly rare in that view, and don't fault women who wouldn't feel that way.

    But I had five kids. that might make a difference in how I feel about that.
     
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  11. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    If you are for killing humans, do you recognize that the victim of a murderer has a beating heart and is a human being? Does the fact that the murderer also has a beating heart and is a human being make it permissible for him/her to kill someone else?
     
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  12. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity I'm n ur cookeez
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    I think Roman Catholic religion presumes that Catholics will die out if they are allowed any relief from reproduction, so it has little to do with any spiritual properties in the unborn. There is all kinds of evidence of this, such as the prohibition against birth control.
     
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  13. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Well, yes. Fair enough, but then they should not insist on showing little embryos looking like little babies to make a point. For that is only an advanced stage.

    By the way, the argument is going to defuse in a few years, at least in the western european world. There are effctive pills you can take the day after, so that you will never know if you killed someone or not :)

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  14. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Did Ms. Rowe reference the Catholic Church somewhere?
    I don't remember it.
    Tom
     
  15. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Do you recognize that the pregnant person usually chose the procreation?
    And that people making choices is generally the reason that people are expected to take responsibility for the outcome of the choices that they make?
    Tom

    Or do you think women are incapable of making such choices? I don't, but I am not a feminist so we might disagree.
     
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  16. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    :confused:
     
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  17. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    That's the point I was making, actually; doesn't matter what the fetus looks like at any point in its development. It WILL BE that 'little baby' if it isn't killed first. It WILL BE that human adult...if it isn't killed first. I find it a deceptive and fallacious argument to say that it is just fine and dandy to kill it BECAUSE it doesn't have some quality it would have if it is left to live for a bit longer.

    I really do believe that if abortion is contemplated, then it should be done so in the full knowledge that it is a fully human life that one is thinking about ending...just as completely as if one is aiming a gun at someone in front of one. Stop kidding ourselves...that is exactly what is happening here.

    ....and this is an improvement?

    That's like saying that it's just fine and dandy to drive into a group of pedestrians with your car as long as you close your eyes first so that you don't KNOW you are going to kill anybody.

    I am of the firm opinion that human life begins when the sperm interacts with the egg and blocks all other genetic 'input.' Conception, in other words.

    That means that men and women need to take responsibility for their own procreations BEFORE they start a new life. It's possible. The vast majority of pregnancies are the result of willing choices made by adults who know exactly how babies are made. They need to figure out just how much they don't want to be pregnant BEFORE they do those things that make them that way.

    And then deal with the consequences ethically and reasonably, in the full knowledge that if they get pregnant, it's not just them in the equation any more. There is another human, one who did not ask to be made and has no say in anything, to be considered.

    ...................and this, believe it or not, is not about religion. In fact, I think, if I were to become an atheist, I would be even more vocal about this. I mean...religion gives some alternative to the 'soul,' or 'spirit' of the unborn. There is no such comfort if there is no afterlife.
     
  18. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Men and woman need to take responsability just because of a strong opinion of yours?

    Well, i am the opinion that a bunch or a couple of duplicating cells is not a human being. Not in the slightest.

    So, it all bolis down to what we consider humanhood. And your opinion is as good as mine.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  19. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I disagree. The fact that the fetus doens't have certain qualities *yet* is exactly why it is OK to kill it without other moral issues.

    No, that analogy is wrong. The relevant thing for determining whether someone is a legal person is not whether they have claimed an inheritance. It *is* whether they have the capacity for consciousness. If that heir never had the capacity to think, emote, etc, then there is no moral issue.

    Well, I disagree that this is the only time. Yes, an unplanned pregnancy is often a tragedy. But remember that the woman in whom that fetus is growing is a full person with rights over her body. In particular, she has the right to require the fetus to be removed from her body (or else she is simply a slave to that fetus). She may NOT have the right to say the fetus should be killed if it can live after that removal, but it seems to me she has the right to insist that nobody else be using her body without her permission.

    But not a *fully* human life: there is no consciousness, for example. What they may or may not have achieved is irrelevant.
     
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  20. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    You are a bunch of duplicating cells.
    Nevertheless, I oppose any other human being feeling entitled to choose your death.

    Tom
     
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