Abortion

[leibowde84]

Thanks for the correction.

It wasn't a correction. I never said that I had discussed this topic with members of this forum. I said that there were plenty of atheists that aren't materialists.

Do you know any atheists who believe in a virgin birth? Worldwide flood? Young Earth?

No, but that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

I trusted in Christ first, studied the scriptures, studied outside the scriptures, changed my convictions. Interesting, right?

If you trusted in Christ first, that means that you are most likely guilty of a confirmation bias.

 

[leibowde84]

It is an extremely inclusive term. Is it a biblical term or an historical term or a socially-derived term? Jesus said to follow Him, you have to sell all your possessions. Yet the Greek word Christian means "follower of Christ". Sure looks like even fewer people than I say are true Christians, are.

Once we're done with the dictionary definition, "I was born Presbyterian so I'm definitely a Christian," we might even let Jesus Christ explain how to follow him, yes? Is that valid, to use the words of Jesus regarding following Jesus, to discern who follows Jesus and who is full of baloney?

Since we have no way of verifying what Jesus actually said, it seems most appropriate to leave the term "Christianity" as an inclusive one. A Christian is a self-applied term.

 

[columbus]

Since we have no way of verifying what Jesus actually said, it seems most appropriate to leave the term "Christianity" as an inclusive one. A Christian is a self-applied term.

THIS^^^^^

People who claim to know which self described Christians are True Christians are setting themselves up as God's Official Spokesman. I find that beyond arrogant and into hubris territory.
Tom

 

[leibowde84]

THIS^^^^^

People who claim to know which self described Christians are True Christians are setting themselves up as God's Official Spokesman. I find that beyond arrogant and into hubris territory.
Tom

Well put.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes.
There are at least a couple of known species of vertebrates that reproduce without males. One is a fish in Africa and one is a Californian lizard.
Nature, as discovered by scientific folks, never ceases to amaze.
Tom

Human virgin birth - such a birth would be female, not male.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It wasn't a correction. I never said that I had discussed this topic with members of this forum. I said that there were plenty of atheists that aren't materialists.
No, but that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

If you trusted in Christ first, that means that you are most likely guilty of a confirmation bias.

Absolutely not. Why?

Because I was born and bred on Evolution and materialism/secularism. No one is born already "born again". I hesitated to become a Christian because of what I knew of the sciences. I had to do research to make a thinking person's non-confirmatory choice, in college, knowing the weights and measures.

How come the people who watch thousands of hours of TV and read hundreds of newspapers towing the party lines never have confirmation bias, only the people who adore God? C'mon.

And if you say I have a confirmation bias, how come all the people who don't want to be a Christian lack a confirmation bias? I've shared Jesus with people who wept as they heard the story of God's redemption yet refused to convert. How come people who don't want to follow Jesus because they love marijuana, or fornication or pornography or money more than Jesus, never have a confirmation bias?

To be frank, the scriptures indicate moral degeneracy tends to pull with quite a bit of confirmation bias against truth.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Since we have no way of verifying what Jesus actually said, it seems most appropriate to leave the term "Christianity" as an inclusive one. A Christian is a self-applied term.

So . . . I'm applying the Greek word Χριστιανός or "Christian", which literally means "follower of Christ," to me and to others. We read the Bible--which is how we "have an idea of what Jesus might have said."

I guess I could never read the Bible and use my psychic abilities to figure what Jesus might have said, but then I'd be making stuff up, yes? No?

I guess I could be a Muslim and never read the Qu'ran, yes? Makes us feel uncomfortable when judges and senators don't read the Constitution or the law statutes, yes? How about a doctor who doesn't read medical texts, ever?

You see the problem with the NTS fallacy here? "A doctor is anyone who calls himself a physician, and anyone may call anyone else a physician, and such a physician may use that label publicly and in private practice, regardless if he's ever read one medical textbook in part or in whole, online or off."

 

[columbus]

Human virgin birth - such a birth would be female, not male.

That's what I said.
Females producing young with no male involvement.
They are egg laying species, not placental, but it's still virgin birth.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To my view, based on my understanding of nature, there is a basic right than any conscious being should have, which is the maximization of its wellbeing (or minimization of its suffering). This is my base for morality.

So the question for me is: can they suffer?

I don’t know if this has been researched yet, but do believe science is the only way we can know until what moment of a gestation, an interruption will cause no suffering to a fetus.

I am pro-choice up to that point.

The woman is capable of suffering at any point in the pregnancy, but I notice that this doesn't seem to be a factor in your thinking.

 

[leibowde84]

Human virgin birth - such a birth would be female, not male.

Human virgin birth is physically impossible though.

 

[gnostic]

Are people dumb?

I mean really when I was a non Christian Science clearly showed me abortion was murder

What I would like know is, what's the hell is "Christian Science?"

There is no such "science" as Christian Science. It is oxymoron.

It would be like saying "Muslim science", "clown science", "fairy science", the "science of Harpo Marx", etc.

 

[leibowde84]

What I would like know is, what's the hell is "Christian Science?"

There is no such "science" as Christian Science. It is oxymoron.

It would be like saying "Muslim science", "clown science", "fairy science", the "science of Harpo Marx", etc.

Actually, Christian Science is very real. There is a Christian Science Reading Room right near my apartment.

Chris·tian Sci·ence
ˌkrisCHən ˈsīəns/
noun

1. the beliefs and practices of the Church of Christ Scientist, a Christian sect founded by Mary Baker Eddy in 1879. Members hold that only God and the mind have ultimate reality, and that sin and illness are illusions that can be overcome by prayer and faith.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Human virgin birth is physically impossible though.

So is creatio ex niholo. So is resurrection after being in an ice cold tomb for days. So is . . .

Is that an anti-scriptural, factual-based argument? "If God exists and is the creator/author of natural law and nature, He is subservient to physics and natural law"?

 

[leibowde84]

So is creatio ex niholo. So is resurrection after being in an ice cold tomb for days. So is . . .

Is that an anti-scriptural, factual-based argument? "If God exists and is the creator/author of natural law and nature, He is subservient to physics and natural law"?

I am just pointing out that you are using physical limitations in a situation (virgin birth) that obviously is not limited by such things.

 

[viole]

Human virgin birth is physically impossible though.

Almost impossible. Ergo, possible. It is only very unlikely.

There is a phenomenon in QM called quantum tunnelling. That is, you can actually let a particle cross an energy barrier that would be classically insurmountable. The metaphor is the one of a stone going through glass without breaking it.

I agree that a baby consists of many of those particles. So, to pass through without breaking anything is not impossible. But only ridicolously improbable. Assuming they did not use other means of extraction, obviously.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Human virgin birth - such a birth would be female, not male.

Out of curiosity.

Do you think that Joseph died as a (male) virgin, too?

Ciao

- viole

 

[leibowde84]

Almost impossible. Ergo, possible. It is only very unlikely.

There is a phenomenon in QM called quantum tunnelling. That is, you can actually let a particle cross an energy barrier that would be classically insurmountable. The metaphor is the one of a stone going through glass without breaking it.

I agree that a baby consists of many of those particles. So, to pass through without breaking anything is not impossible. But only ridicolously improbable. Assuming they did not use other means of extraction, obviously.

Ciao

- viole

No, a virgin birth is impossible without artificial insemination.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Out of curiosity.

Do you think that Joseph died as a (male) virgin, too?

Ciao

- viole

Joseph and Mary wed, had marital relations after Jesus was born, had male and female children, including James and Jude.

 

[metis]

Joseph and Mary wed, had marital relations after Jesus was born, had male and female children, including James and Jude.

Don't get too carried away here because the word for "brother" in Koine Greek also included male cousins (extended family).

BTW, I think it's his "brother" James that actually was from a different Mary, but I don;t have the time to look it up.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To be frank, the scriptures indicate moral degeneracy tends to pull with quite a bit of confirmation bias against truth.

Indeed: "if people tell you that you're wrong, ignore them. They're saying it because there's something wrong with them. You don't need to worry about the possibility that their point of view might be valid. Don't question; just believe."