Abortion

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would say the biggest threat is atheism and immorality, not Christian and deist founders trying to stave off yet another monarchial totalitarian regime.

That's only because the English Civil War and the Wars of Religion are a few centuries further away from you than they were from the Founding Fathers.

In a lot of ways, the American Revolution was a continuation of the English Civil Wars. The Americans remembered the ideas of democracy that were hashed out in Putney; why don't you think they would have remembered the awful persecution that happened when churches got the power of governments?

 

[leibowde84]

We cannot officially be a Christian nation, yes. I'll settle for unofficially--once we get there.

What qualifies as an unofficial christian nation, in your opinion?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's only because the English Civil War and the Wars of Religion are a few centuries further away from you than they were from the Founding Fathers.

In a lot of ways, the American Revolution was a continuation of the English Civil Wars. The Americans remembered the ideas of democracy that were hashed out in Putney; why don't you think they would have remembered the awful persecution that happened when churches got the power of governments?

They not only remembered, they had examples of it in their day. The issue here is anyone can say they are a Muslim or Christian and behave decently or indecently. But who is sincere and who is fronting? I would say the difference is whether one trusts Christ for salvation . . . or oneself.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What qualifies as an unofficial christian nation, in your opinion?

All the Christians would be born agains, not Christian by birth or birth certificate, but by conscious desire and choice. Not there now, were somewhat close during the Great Awakenings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They not only remembered, they had examples of it in their day. The issue here is anyone can say they are a Muslim or Christian and behave decently or indecently. But who is sincere and who is fronting? I would say the difference is whether one trusts Christ for salvation . . . or oneself.

We aren't in a position to peer into people's hearts, so we can only go by what they call themselves.

And history shows that when people in power who call themselves Christian arrange things so that their church and their government are free to influence and support each other, Christians of other denominations and non-Christians suffer.

The wall of separation of church and state encourages free expression of religion without persecution.

 

[leibowde84]

All the Christians would be born agains, not Christian by birth or birth certificate, but by conscious desire and choice. Not there now, were somewhat close during the Great Awakenings.

We certainly aren't an unofficial christian nation now, and we certainly aren't heading in that direction. So, do you think the opportunity has passed us by? Certainly seems that way.

 

[BilliardsBall]

We certainly aren't an unofficial christian nation now, and we certainly aren't heading in that direction. So, do you think the opportunity has passed us by? Certainly seems that way.

Yes, that ship has sailed, toward the seas of Armageddon.

 

[columbus]

All the Christians would be born agains, not Christian by birth or birth certificate, but by conscious desire and choice. Not there now, were somewhat close during the Great Awakenings.

I don't want to utterly derail this thread, so I will just say EW!

You seem to be advocating a return to the olden days of slavery, genocide, and general oppression of everyone not a straight WASP male. Not me.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't want to utterly derail this thread, so I will just say EW!

You seem to be advocating a return to the olden days of slavery, genocide, and general oppression of everyone not a straight WASP male. Not me.
Tom

America was never a Christian nation, you are worried about nothing.

What I understand is that if everyone was born again and not just "Christian", we could close all prisons and take locks off cars, bicycles, and marriage and divorce. Too many people commit adultery on their spouses for me to believe the nonsense thrown around this forum as "righteous".

 

[Thumper]

America was never a Christian nation, you are worried about nothing.

What I understand is that if everyone was born again and not just "Christian", we could close all prisons and take locks off cars, bicycles, and marriage and divorce. Too many people commit adultery on their spouses for me to believe the nonsense thrown around this forum as "righteous".

That seems to go against the basic data from the Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies.

You have any references to statistical analyses that support your contention?

 

[Sapiens]

That seems to go against the basic data from the Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies.

You have any references to statistical analyses that support your contention?

I believe that evangelical Christians make up a disproportionately large percentage of our prison population while atheists are grossly underrepresented.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That seems to go against the basic data from the Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies.

You have any references to statistical analyses that support your contention?

I searched and read some, but where does your reference parse born again Christians from people who are Christian in name only? I would think that practicing (genuine) and non-practicing (hypocritical, would steal) Christians would affect the results.

Further, you seem to miss my extensive anecdotal research in this field. I personally know thousands of Christians who are the real deal and have agreed that we can make this world a utopia, without theft, rape, etc.

 

[Thumper]

I searched and read some, but where does your reference parse born again Christians from people who are Christian in name only? I would think that practicing (genuine) and non-practicing (hypocritical, would steal) Christians would affect the results.

Further, you seem to miss my extensive anecdotal research in this field. I personally know thousands of Christians who are the real deal and have agreed that we can make this world a utopia, without theft, rape, etc.

You are entitled to your own beliefs, but not your own data, so no I did not miss your "extensive anecdotal research." Ancedotal research is less than meaningless.

"The church doesn’t like for people to grow up, because you can’t control grown-ups. That’s why we talk about being born again. When you’re born again, you’re still a child. People don’t need to be born again. They need to grow up. They need to accept their responsibility for themselves and the world." —Bishop John Shelby Spong

 

[Sapiens]

I searched and read some, but where does your reference parse born again Christians from people who are Christian in name only? I would think that practicing (genuine) and non-practicing (hypocritical, would steal) Christians would affect the results.

Further, you seem to miss my extensive anecdotal research in this field. I personally know thousands of Christians who are the real deal and have agreed that we can make this world a utopia, without theft, rape, etc.

Then how do you account for what I posted earlier?

I believe that evangelical Christians make up a disproportionately large percentage of our prison population while atheists are grossly underrepresented.​

 

[Thumper]

I searched and read some, but where does your reference parse born again Christians from people who are Christian in name only? I would think that practicing (genuine) and non-practicing (hypocritical, would steal) Christians would affect the results.

Further, you seem to miss my extensive anecdotal research in this field. I personally know thousands of Christians who are the real deal and have agreed that we can make this world a utopia, without theft, rape, etc.

I would expect that if there were any measurable difference in being "born again" we would have data to support such. But there is no data that I can find to back your claim in any way.

I do find evidence from multiple sources that secular democracies have less felonies, lower teen pregnancy rates, etc. than highly religious societies.

 

[columbus]

I do find evidence from multiple sources that secular democracies have less felonies, lower teen pregnancy rates, etc. than highly religious societies.

Read my lips Grasshopper.
Correlation does not equal causation.
I can't think of a secular democracy that isn't also the direct beneficiary of EuroColonialism and the good old days of environmental destruction. Countries with historically low rates of genocide and pollution tend to be theocratic. You can always find some form of justification if that is your goal.
Tom

 

[Sapiens]

Read my lips Grasshopper.
Correlation does not equal causation.
I can't think of a secular democracy that isn't also the direct beneficiary of EuroColonialism and the good old days of environmental destruction. Countries with historically low rates of genocide and pollution tend to be theocratic. You can always find some form of justification if that is your goal.
Tom

You mean like Switzerland? or Sweden?

 

[Thumper]

Read my lips Grasshopper.
Correlation does not equal causation.
I can't think of a secular democracy that isn't also the direct beneficiary of EuroColonialism and the good old days of environmental destruction. Countries with historically low rates of genocide and pollution tend to be theocratic. You can always find some form of justification if that is your goal.
Tom

You have any evidence for your opinion?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Then how do you account for what I posted earlier?

I believe that evangelical Christians make up a disproportionately large percentage of our prison population while atheists are grossly underrepresented.​

Good question!

1. It is wholly unpopular with parole boards to say things like, "I'm an atheist! Morality is subjective and the laws of this state, a societal contrivance."

2. Is is POPULAR to claim Christian conversion in interviews, polls, parole boards to secure early release if possible--because the authorities see the 180-degree turn born agains make in prison.

3. You seem to be drawing an inference that Christianity gets people jailed while atheism has lawful citizens. I do not advertise Christianity as "spend less time in prison!" as if that's something laudable, just as atheists seem to say they are good despite the fact that policemen don't pull people over for obeying the law. "Hi, sorry to stop your vehicle, but you were going 68 in a 70, and I feel that I owe you a debt of gratitude for being safe." This doesn't play in Heaven, either--"Let me in, God, because although I was an atheist, I did a bunch of good things for self-preservation and to avoid jail time." So atheists are on the whole better educated and wealthier than other sinners and have better lawyers . . . that has to account in part for the statistics, because it is so--atheists tend to have more college degrees and more money than other sinners.

4. Again, a lot of people come to Jesus for salvation when the chips are down. Jesus said it was a shame that prostitutes and tax collectors were crowding the entrance door of Heaven while the religious were missing the door completely. I EXPECT to see MANY Christians in prison. On death row, a lot of people either get saved or claim to have gotten saved. They are facing an existential crisis as best they can--you don't really ever here about serial killers embracing atheism afresh in prison--what I hear is that atheists dislike talking about the grave and what comes after.

 

[Thumper]

Good question!

1. It is wholly unpopular with parole boards to say things like, "I'm an atheist! Morality is subjective and the laws of this state, a societal contrivance."

2. Is is POPULAR to claim Christian conversion in interviews, polls, parole boards to secure early release if possible--because the authorities see the 180-degree turn born agains make in prison.

3. You seem to be drawing an inference that Christianity gets people jailed while atheism has lawful citizens. I do not advertise Christianity as "spend less time in prison!" as if that's something laudable, just as atheists seem to say they are good despite the fact that policemen don't pull people over for obeying the law. "Hi, sorry to stop your vehicle, but you were going 68 in a 70, and I feel that I owe you a debt of gratitude for being safe." This doesn't play in Heaven, either--"Let me in, God, because although I was an atheist, I did a bunch of good things for self-preservation and to avoid jail time." So atheists are on the whole better educated and wealthier than other sinners and have better lawyers . . . that has to account in part for the statistics, because it is so--atheists tend to have more college degrees and more money than other sinners.

4. Again, a lot of people come to Jesus for salvation when the chips are down. Jesus said it was a shame that prostitutes and tax collectors were crowding the entrance door of Heaven while the religious were missing the door completely. I EXPECT to see MANY Christians in prison. On death row, a lot of people either get saved or claim to have gotten saved. They are facing an existential crisis as best they can--you don't really ever here about serial killers embracing atheism afresh in prison--what I hear is that atheists dislike talking about the grave and what comes after.

All you needed to say is "no true Scotsman". We could have filled in the rest.