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Abortion only for rape, insest, and life of the mother.

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by averageJOE, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    We aren't talking about people. Fetuses utterly lack the necessary equipment for sentience, self-awareness and physical sensation until about 20 weeks into the pregnancy. Is something with no sense of self, no sensation, no awareness, no intelligence, no desires or aspirations, etc. the same thing as a living person?

    No. It isn't. It's something else. Not yet a person, but no longer a separate sperm and egg. There are words for what it is throughout the entire process, but it isn't a "person" until it's born. Until it is viable without the mother's body, it's more of a parasite.
     
  2. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Phh. An adult dog is smarter than a newborn, yet we wouldn´t say a newborn is less of a person than an adult dog. The dog has more refined and defined desires, sensations, awareness, aspirations, emotions, etc than the newborn.

    We value the baby over the dog because it is a human. It is the basic value of human life.
     
  3. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    I'm not going to argue about this issue any more with people who can not ever become pregnant or give birth themselves. It's totally pointless. I've learned from these discussions that many, if not most, anti-choice men completely lack any capacity for empathy with women.
     
  4. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Valuing human life = no empathy.

    Sure :rolleyes:

    Just because I cannot kill in such fashion does not mean I cannot see said killing is not magically okay.
     
  5. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    You are implying that an adult female is less of a person than a blastocyte.
     
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  6. NIX

    NIX Daughter of Chaos

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    For many, empathy for a concept- an idea of a human life- is far easier to grant/find than empathy for a woman.
    Some people relate better to ideas- and causes, than they do to the people in general.
    Perhaps it is easier to love the idea of a new perfect life, than it is to love an actual person complete with flaws, hurts, and personal desires and needs.
     
    #46 NIX, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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  7. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    I have to spread some more frubals around before I can frubal you again.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Interesting question, but I realized that you're setting up an apples-to-oranges comparison: your hypothetical deals with how we should respond after a violation of bodily security has been committed; the question of abortion is about (among other things) whether a woman should be forced to endure an ongoing violation of her bodily security.
     
  9. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    So, when my stepfather impregnated me at the age of 13, I should have been legally required to bear his child? I guess I ought to be grateful that he beat me into miscarriage, then.
     
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  10. E. Nato Difficile

    E. Nato Difficile Active Member

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    I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

    I wish pro-lifers would at least admit that the "life" represented by a fetus is a unique form of life in that it's still inside another being, and that being deserves to be considered relevant in this matter. The way pro-life propaganda doesn't mention the mother, or acts like these glowing fetuses are simply floating around in space somewhere, creeps me out.

    If I'm guilty of dehumanizing a fetus or blastocyst by not calling it a "human," then I'm just recognizing that it hasn't been born yet. Like you said, it's preferable to dehumanizing an adult female by forcing her to endure pregnancy and childbirth against her will.

    -Nato
     
  11. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    44% of rape victims are under the age of 18 (source).

    Does it make any difference at all that, when you talk about rape and incest, you're talking about GIRLS, not women?
     
  12. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    Wow, Mister Emu just came online, viewed this thread for approximately half an hour, then went offline again without replying. I suppose it's easier to advocate the 40-week extension of a thirteen year old's sexual violation when she's an anonymous statistic.
     
  13. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Mister Emu was answering with thought but realized he didn't have proper time to respond with the dictates of work so left the screen up while he prepared.
     
  14. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    The fact that you have to work that hard to think of what to say doesn't give you pause?
     
  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    While I agree with you that a fetus is not a person, I think it's interesting that the "bodily rights" argument in favour of the pro-choice position still works even if the fetus is deemed a person.

    I think it illustrates that for the anti-choice position to work, they need to put forward an argument that gives a fetus rights and protections well beyond those of a normal person. If they don't do this, they're disregarding the rights of the mother.
     
    #55 9-10ths_Penguin, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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  16. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
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    It's telling when someone very easily says "so what?" when it comes to what a woman wants for her own body.

    Because if a woman - or a girl - has no right to decide what she should do with her own body, it creates a perspective that her lack of rights of what she can and can't do with her own body extends to other areas.

    How long did it take for marital rape to be recognized as a crime? You know....the thought that a woman doesn't have the right to decide what her husband can and can't put inside of her body?
     
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    It's not just an issue for women, either. If women don't have the right to bodily security, then it's not a human right, period. I value my own bodily security, too. Even though I'll never be pregnant myself, attacks on abortion rights undermine rights that apply to me.
     
  18. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Oh, you don't want government to implant monitoring chips in your body to make sure you are not imbibing illegal substances, going places they think you shouldn't be, or doing anything else they wouldn't be able to otherwise control? Good to hear! :D (I think we can cover you under the third amendment--no quartering of soldiers)
     
  19. NIX

    NIX Daughter of Chaos

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  20. Warren Clark

    Warren Clark Informer

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    This is why it should not be over turned. Because by the time rape was proven the window for termination will be over.
     
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