Abortion and Capital Punishment

[Fascist Christ]

Abortion or Capital Punishment: Which is more like murder and why?

 

[Melody]

Both...equally...and the why is obvious.

 

[michel]

Both...equally...and the why is obvious.

Absolutely, because the taking of a life is something that is wrong, morally, 99% of the time.

 

[Fascist Christ]

Absolutely, because the taking of a life is something that is wrong, morally, 99% of the time.

The only exception I make is for self defense. I do not see the purpose of killing someone who is already imprisoned.

Even so, I do believe that you must first be alive before you can be killed. Since 99% of abortions occur prior to the onset of brain activity (if there is even a brain yet) I can only oppose abortion 1% of the time. I think this is a major difference between the two.

 

[Ryan2065]

Capital Punishment is more like murder than abortion. You know, seeing as murder is defined as "the unlawful killing..." =)

 

[CaptainXeroid]

murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

In my mind it's no contest. I say abortion.

Some one sentenced to death in the US not only murdered someone, but the jury found the crime to be particularly heinous that the perpetrator was beyond rehabilitation.

The vast majoriity of the time, the only crime the aborted baby committed was being inconvenient to its mother.

 

[michel]

The only exception I make is for self defense. I do not see the purpose of killing someone who is already imprisoned.

Even so, I do believe that you must first be alive before you can be killed. Since 99% of abortions occur prior to the onset of brain activity (if there is even a brain yet) I can only oppose abortion 1% of the time. I think this is a major difference between the two.

Ah, this is where we take different paths; I do not accept (For me - what you think is right for you) that the starting point of life of the fetus is at a time later than............; to me, the fetus has right, from the moment any activity in the egg takes place.

I don't expect you to feel that you need or want to agree with me; I am merely stating my beliefs.

 

[Fascist Christ]

Capital Punishment is more like murder than abortion. You know, seeing as murder is defined as "the unlawful killing..." =)

I thought of using a different word, but then I figured, when debating law, what laws do we follow? When I was about to change it to simply "killing," I realized "moral law" fits fine.

In other words, "immoral killing" should be a suitable variant for the definition of "murder."

 

[Ryan2065]

I thought of using a different word, but then I figured, when debating law, what laws do we follow? When I was about to change it to simply "killing," I realized "moral law" fits fine.

In other words, "immoral killing" should be a suitable variant for the definition of "murder."

I still say Capital Punishment is more like "immoral killing" for the simple fact that in capital punishment not all people killed are guilty (yes they are all thought guilty, but theres a difference). Pinch your arm, you just killed more cells than when you abort! =)

 

[Fascist Christ]

to me, the fetus has right, from the moment any activity in the egg takes place.

This is interesting. I must ask, when do you suppose life ends? When the vital organs stop? Even then, hair and nails can continue to grow. Must this stop as well before you consider the person to be dead?

 

[CaptainXeroid]

...Pinch your arm, you just killed more cells than when you abort

This is not a valid comparison. The skin cells that flake off your arm cannot form a distinct person, but a fetus can. I don't think you could even make a viable clone from epidermis cells.

This is interesting. I must ask, when do you suppose life ends?...

This is a question for entire other series of threads. I'm not a doctor, but I play one on the internet, so I'd say when there is no brain activity(like Terri Schiavo) or the person can no longer breathe unassisted.

 

[Fascist Christ]

I'd say when there is no brain activity(like Terri Schiavo) or the person can no longer breathe unassisted.

If we can use this criteria to determine if the born are alive, why can't we use the same criteria to determine if the unborn are alive?

 

[Theodore]

Abortion=lawful execution (which I do not agree with)
Capitol Punishment=lawful execution (which I feel is usually justified)

 

[CaptainXeroid]

If we can use this criteria to determine if the born are alive, why can't we use the same criteria to determine if the unborn are alive?

You're talking about different scenarios since the processes are working in opposite directions. In the womb, the baby's lungs and brain are developing and the mother's body supplies oxygen to the baby via the umbilical cord. In the case of a dying person, these organs are deteriorating and shutting down.

I can understand how someone could oppose abortion and the death penalty because both involve killing. I do realize that the justice system is not perfect and that sometimes innocent men are accused and convicted. My support for the death penalty has wavered a bit because of this fact.

While I oppose abortion as the murder of the most helpless of human beings, I do not favor criminlalizing it because I don't think it's right to restrict a doctor if he faces a situation in which a pregnancy endangers the woman's life, and he may have to act quickly to save her, say in the case of a tubal pregnancy.

 

[huajiro]

Both...equally...and the why is obvious.

I agree

 

[Fascist Christ]

You're talking about different scenarios since the processes are working in opposite directions. In the womb, the baby's lungs and brain are developing and the mother's body supplies oxygen to the baby via the umbilical cord. In the case of a dying person, these organs are deteriorating and shutting down.

I realize that both are processes, but I feel there is a need to determine what the exact point is when life begins. Are spermatazoas alive? Is every single ovum alive? What is the difference between those and a zygote? Men develope sperm on a daily basis. Should masturbation be considered murder? Since that act is typically several megadeaths, should the punishment be capital?

Where do we draw the line between what is murder and what is not?

 

[Ryan2065]

This is not a valid comparison. The skin cells that flake off your arm cannot form a distinct person, but a fetus can. I don't think you could even make a viable clone from epidermis cells.

Yes you can... Any cell from any person (except sex cells) can actually form a clone theoretically. =)

 

[Mister Emu]

Even so, I do believe that you must first be alive before you can be killed.

How do you define alive? I personally like the biological definition...

 

[CaptainXeroid]

...theoretically...

Dolly the sheep was cloned from '...a single mammary cell...' and most cloning has been accomplished by '...transferring nuclei from embryonic cells into such enucleated eggs...' source Source. Theoretically you might be able to clone from any cell, but I could not find any evidence of a scientist producing a viable clone from skin cells. Perhaps you could link to an article describing such.

...I feel there is a need to determine what the exact point is when life begins. ...Where do we draw the line between what is murder and what is not?...

I know not every one is going to agree, but to me the answer is 100% crystal clear. Fertilization. Before that point, they are merely cells. Once the ovum is fertitlized, the processes have set in motion to create a unique person.

 

[Fascist Christ]

How do you define alive? I personally like the biological definition...

I prefer the medical definition: brain activity.