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abc123 kid versus Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Originally Posted by abc123kid:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ld-mormons-considered-cult-6.html#post2865338
Mormon Belief
1) Book of Mormon more correct than the Bible (History of Church 4:461)
2) Jesus and Satan Spirit Brother (Mormon Doctrine pg 163)
3) God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine pg 321)
4) The Father has flesh and bones (D&C 130:22)
5) Many gods (Mormon Doctrine pg 163)
6) Jesus was not God in the beginning He had to come into existence (Mormon Doctrine pg 129)

Christian Belief
1) Bible is infallible word of God (2 Tim 3:16)
2) Jesus is God and Creator of Satan (John 1:3 ; Col 1:16)
3) God has always been God (Ps 93:2; Is 43:10b; is 45:5)
4) God is spirit (John 4:24); Spirit has no flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)
5) One God (Deut 6:4; Is 43:10b; Is 45:5)
6) Jesus is God and Creator ( John 1:3; Col 1:16)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
As agreed, we will discuss these points one at a time. When we both agree that we have nothing more to say on one point, we will move on to the next. Nobody is allowed to derail the debate by going off on a tangent about some point other than the one being discussed. Do these rules meet with your approval, kid? If they do, I would like you to begin by quoting the reference you have paraphrased in this statement: Book of Mormon more correct than the Bible (History of Church 4:461). I don't actually have a copy of the "History of the Church" so I am going to need to see the exact wording in order to respond. It is clear to me that the paraphrased statement doesn't accurately express our belief.
 
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abc123kid

Member
Just to clear things up. I was not questioning your honesty in the other post. I was making a scenario. The scenario goes as this "if i have personally read something in the book of Mormon and present whatever it is to you and you say that it is not in the Book of Mormon then I will question your honesty at that point or question whether or not you know what is written. I am not questioning your credibility as of know. I have no reason or purpose to do so. Just to clear that up. Im not one of those people who sit like a coward behind a computer and type degrading things about people. Thats not why Im here.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The scenario goes as this "if i have personally read something in the book of Mormon and present whatever it is to you and you say that it is not in the Book of Mormon then I will question your honesty at that point or question whether or not you know what is written.
Well, that sounds perfectly reasonable. I have to leave now for an appointment, but will respond when I return. Meanwhile, could you please quote verbatim what the History of the Church 4:461 states? Thank you.
 

abc123kid

Member
The quote goes like this

"-Sunday 28- I spent the day in the council with the twelve apostles at the house of President Young, conversing with them upon a variety of subjects. Brother Joseph Fielding was present, having been absent four years on a mission to England. I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The quote goes like this

"-Sunday 28- I spent the day in the council with the twelve apostles at the house of President Young, conversing with them upon a variety of subjects. Brother Joseph Fielding was present, having been absent four years on a mission to England. I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
Thank you.

I suppose I could just counter with this statement (from a book entitled "The Articles of Faith" by James E. Talmage, a former LDS Apostle) and let the matter drop: "The Church believes the word of God contained in the Bible. It accepts the Bible "as the foremost of [the Church's] standard works, first among the books which have been proclaimed as…written guides in faith and doctrine. In the respect and sanctity with which the Latter-day Saints regard the Bible they are of like profession with Christian denominations in general."

We use the King James Version of the Holy Bible. It has been described in various ways by our leaders, during the 180-year history of the Church. Without the Bible, Joseph Smith would never have been led to pray to God, asking which Church to join. Obviously, for us, if it led to the foundation of what we believe to be the re-establishment of Christ's original Church, it is held in high regard.

It is because we also believe The Book of Mormon to be the word of God that our critics assume we hold the Bible to be less important than is the case. We are occasionally asked which book trumps the other. To us, that's like asking whether Matthew trumps Luke, or whether John trumps Mark. Since we believe both books to come from the same source (i.e. God), neither one trumps the other. The Book of Mormon does teach some things that the Bible does not, but it does not in any way contradict the Bible. There are doctrines on which the Bible is silent. There are others on which the Bible raises more questions than it answers. The Book of Mormon clarifies many of the doctrines the Bible alludes to but on which it never makes a definitive statement. I have never found myself in a position where I've had to decide which book is right and which is wrong.

Our critics also often find fault with the statement one of our Articles of Faith makes with respect to the Bible. That statement begins, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." As far as it is translated correctly?!? Why the disclaimer, they wonder. What, after all, is the alternative? Should we believe it when it's translated incorrectly? Or when a careless transcriber left out a couple of ultimately important words? We do not believe that the Bible is inerrant. We do believe that the original message, as revealed by God to His servants in ancient times was perfect. But we are not so naive as to assume that, when not one single original biblical document exists today, the original writings have been preserved 100% free from human error.

All members of the LDS Church -- not just children -- attend Sunday School classes each week. Every year we study a different book of scripture. We study the Old Testament one year, followed the next year by the New Testament, the next by The Book of Mormon and the last by The Doctrine and Covenants (which is a book of modern revelation given to us when God spoke to his prophets beginning with Joseph Smith). We then start over. So you see, we spend as much time studying the Bible as we do studying the uniquely LDS scriptures. And when we study the Bible, we study it to learn of God, not to find fault with it, to try to figure out possible translation errors, or to find some way in which it is inferior to The Book of Mormon. We love and revere the Bible. As one of our living Apostles recently said, "[The Bible] is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We do believe that there are fewer textual errors in the Book of Mormon than there are in the Bible. In other words, the translation is purer. The Book of Mormon has been translated into English just once from its original source, and we believe the translator to have been a prophet chosen by God for that purpose.

The Bible has had a much more complicated history. There is not one single solitary original biblical manuscript in existance today. The earliest manuscripts we do have are copies of copies of copies of copies. Any time a manuscript the size of the Bible is copied by hand, the potential for errors exists. The first copy may be fairly accurate, but a second copy, using the first one as the "original" is likely to have even more errors than the first. Then, of course, there are the problems which arise when anything is translated from one language into another. This would explain why there are so many different versions of the Bible today. Each group of translators was convinced that they were better qualified to translate accurately the words than were the others.

Even The Book of Mormon contained errors which had to be corrected as they were identified, and the first translation took place just 180 years ago. Joseph Smith considered the possibility of errors in his translation and addressed the issue on the cover page of the book, saying, "And now, if there are faults, they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God."

We believe The Book of Mormon to be "the most correct book on earth," not because of its message but because there has been less opportunity for that message to become flawed over time. Fewer human hands have handled it; it's that simple.

Finally, let's look at 2 Timothy 3:16 and what it really says. I see absolutely nothing in that passage that says "the Bible is the infallible word of God." As a Mormon, I fully agree that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." I don't personally accept the Apocrypha, and I suspect you don't either. The Catholic Church says it's scripture, though. Does that make it "the infallible word of God"? Scripture is any holy writ accepted by a religion as being revealed by God. The words "scripture" and "Bible" are not interchangeable, much as you may wish they were. God never, ever said that "all scripture" was to be found in "the Bible," nor did He ever promise that by the time we got "the Bible," it would be a 100% accurate and complete record of His dealings with mankind.
 
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abc123kid

Member
The statement by Joseph Smith did not hold the view in which you just made. He believed it to be the "best book." Was that His opinion or was He just mistaken.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The statement by Joseph Smith did not hold the view in which you just made. He believed it to be the "best book."
He didn't say it was "the best book." He said it was "the most correct of any book." I've explained why he would have used the word "correct." It had nothing to do with the original text, but everything to do with the fact that the Bible has been transcribed and translated into English hundreds and hundreds of times. By the way, which of the many versions out there is the "inerrant" one?

Was that His opinion or was He just mistaken.
Why must it be one or the other?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hmmm... I'm starting to think that abc123kid isn't interested in debating me after all. That's okay. I'll just continue on my own, and move on to address his second point.

2) Jesus and Satan Spirit Brother (Mormon Doctrine pg 163)
2) Jesus is God and Creator of Satan (John 1:3 ; Col 1:16)

Like Christians anciently, Mormons believe that all human beings are the offspring of God and that He is the Father of our spirits. (See Acts 17:29 and Hebrews 12:9 if you doubt these doctrines to be biblical.) Unlike traditional Christians, we believe that all of us lived in God's presence prior to being born. We were spirit beings at that time, without bodies of flesh and bones. As the spirit sons and daughters of God, we were all brothers and sisters to each other.

Unique among all the sons of God was the one we know as Jesus Christ. Unlike the rest of us, He was with His Father in the beginning. Unlike us, He was perfect in every conceivable way and had all of the divine attributes and qualities His Father had. The shared a unity of will and purpose to such an extent that together, they were known (along with the Holy Ghost) both individually and collectively, as God. Finally, even though we were all the spirit offspring of our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ was also His Father's "Only Begotten" Son. Under His Father's direction, Jesus Christ created our universe. He was chosen prior to His birth in Bethlehem to be the lamb who would be slain for our sins.

Another of the spirit sons of God was one named Lucifer. He was a proud and rebellious son who sought to exalt himself above his Father and who was cast out of Heaven for attempting to do so. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he was disowned by his Father, and lost his right to ever again be known as a son of God (or a brother to the greatest of God's sons, Jesus Christ). If Jesus and Satan were sons of the same Father, they were spirit brothers, a fact which in no way reflects positively on Satan or negatively on the Savior of the world.

Mormons, incidentally, did not invent this doctrine. Not by a long shot. In the third century, the Christian writer, Lactantius, wrote:

“Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself, replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks.

I don't think most Mormons actually care one way or the other whether other Christians accept this doctrine or not. They would just like people to stop trying to make it look like something its not -- like Mormons somehow see Jesus Christ and Lucifer as equals, when nothing could possibly be further from the truth.
 
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