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A Weird Idea

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hey everyone,

For the purposes of this thread, this is entirely speculative. If I was serious about it I would have put the thread in SF but I can guess there will be big technical issues with the idea.

What I thought was RF could intergrate a "wiki" onto the forum software to actas a special area for creating wiki pages that any registered member can read, share and edit. In an ideal world it could act as a source of quick reference for topics that get debated on RF, beliefs systems or creating pages about the forum community or its members. It acts as a common store of all the knowledge and ideas we have on the forum which anyone can use and can slowly accumulate over time. That way all our discussions actually contribute to something. The best bit is that obscure information coming from members with either specialised knowledge or unusal beliefs has a chance of surviving perhaps years after they are inactive and creates a sort of "living history" of the forums.

After we do a thread, it basically goes inactive and dissappears. It is possible to search for something you have in mind or dig through to find individual threads (if like me you want to know something about RF's history). So essentially the forum becomes like "landfill" in which we create huge numbers of threads and topics that then are read rarely-if at all- years later. There's over 12 years worth of stuff on here but They aren't linked to anything so even if you dramatically improved the search features on the forum, it still wouldn't "connect the dots" in a way that makes the 170,000+ threads intelligable or even know what is useful.

The wiki could act as a way of "recycling" discussions by creating a way to organise or index them by linking to them. Old topics can be re-used and the information circulates better as if the forum were a living, breathing ecosystem: the "old" material can be built up and improved or replaced by the "new" material. Rather than just get buried old discussions may have a sort of afterlife as reference material and each thread, post and member therefore "adds" to a big picture that keeps developing as new members join and old members leave. So in five/ten years time, the discussions we are having now act like "compost" in which people can pull out old discussions or act as a basis for new ones in which the "seed" of new ideas and discussions can grow. It also would perhaps give RF a much more distinctive sense of its identity, culture and history as a community.

It doesn't take much imagination to see that this is open to abuse and is a moderation nightmare given its created by members for members of members ideas, but as a possible way of building RF as a community and making unused threads "useful" or "relevant" rather than just sink almost without trace it sounded worth floating.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
We can quite easily start up our own wikia if we like. But I suppose a wikia closely integrated with the forums, which'd be nicer, would be tough on the admins to create.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
While it does sound like a fantastic idea, I can't help but wonder for those members who are interested and will read such things, what could our own wikia achieve that linking to a site like Wiki or Stanford Plato couldn't? Forum threads come and go, live and die.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
While it does sound like a fantastic idea, I can't help but wonder for those members who are interested and will read such things, what could our own wikia achieve that linking to a site like Wiki or Stanford Plato couldn't? Forum threads come and go, live and die.

I guess it might work for more obscure stuff which can be more easily read if compiled here. People won't need to go trudging across the Internet searching for stuff.

It might also be good to use it in new ways - for example there could a page for evolutionist arguments and counter-arguments, honed and added to by each fresh discussion which goes on.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
While it does sound like a fantastic idea, I can't help but wonder for those members who are interested and will read such things, what could our own wikia achieve that linking to a site like Wiki or Stanford Plato couldn't? Forum threads come and go, live and die.

Well technologically, Forums are still basically in their infancy. RF is 12 years old and one of the largest forums on religion (if not the largest) on the Internet (in English?). So there has to be some sort of way in which it can "evolve" or develop. Whilst this happens to some extent anyway on RF with new members joining and old ones leaving, there isn't a common area in which everyone contributes and uses simultaneously. There is no way of connecting it as a "community" only individuals posting isolated posts for a particular thread. In the most literal sense, say we created articles on a wiki- they essentially "evolve" by a process of editing and re-editing. You can't do that with individual posts or threads unless you were to use the quote feature- but that means you have to have it in front of you. It's sort of weird to create so much data and have no way to organise it. I don't know how big the servers would have to be to hold all the stuff we've got on here but there could be a better way of organising and using the space than just letting thread die and never be used or even read again.

We can quite easily start up our own wikia if we like. But I suppose a wikia closely integrated with the forums, which'd be nicer, would be tough on the admins to create.

If there turned out to be an easy way to do it on RF or just the demand for it making it worth the effort- it would be worth doing on the forums themselves. I think a wikia is a nice idea but I'm not sure it will last beyond a handful of enthusiasts. [We'd need to pin a thread on RF so people know it exists for example so people contribute and use it.] Putting it on the forums gives it a chance of lasting longer and being more readily accessible.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
The problem with open source "Wiki" resources that anyone could edit, would be that the religious beliefs sections would constantly be edited by disagreeing forum members. Just in Christianity alone, there are thousands of denominations because they don't all agree.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
It'd have to be a different kind of format and idea to Wikipedia-style stuff, or it'd be redundant. I think documenting things worked out in discussions etc in an organised fashion etc.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The new forum software does have a built-in tagging system that could be used to help organize threads if you search for the tags. But most members don't seem to use the tagging system (myself included). Tagging systems only really work well if they are used frequently and regularly.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The problem with open source "Wiki" resources that anyone could edit, would be that the religious beliefs sections would constantly be edited by disagreeing forum members. Just in Christianity alone, there are thousands of denominations because they don't all agree.

Yeah. The whole idea creates a new area for moderation. I won't deny that.

The new forum software does have a built-in tagging system that could be used to help organize threads if you search for the tags. But most members don't seem to use the tagging system (myself included). Tagging systems only really work well if they are used frequently and regularly.

Thanks for that. I will try to remember to use it. :D

I was just interested to see if there was the demand for this. At a guess it won't be huge beyond a few people but it just seemed odd for so much stuff to have become "irrelevant".

[unrelated to the above posts...]... This idea would effectively make the scholars DIR redundant as it means member could share stuff much easier.

@Kirran , how easy is it to create a wikia? I use to do it for forum based games a while back. I mean we could do one to try out and share the results just to contemplate the options maybe and experiment. That would save the admins hassle until there is a proven need for it but if it is worth doing it would be better here.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
@Kirran , how easy is it to create a wikia? I use to do it for forum based games a while back. I mean we could do one to try out and share the results just to contemplate the options maybe and experiment. That would save the admins hassle until there is a proven need for it but if it is worth doing it would be better here.

Like crazy easy.

The hard part would be actually putting together the bare bones of it so it was usable.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The Scholars DIR is actually gone now. We quietly poofed it during some restructuring several months back because it wasn't getting used and most threads in there were not actually what it was originally intended for. It was supposed to be a space where only scholars would be able to post content. At any rate, for something like Wikia integration, the site owner would have to be the person to implement something like that. There may be a Xenforo module/extension (whatever they are called) that lets you do it, and it may require a monetary investment to support.

Personally, I'd rather see the introduction of a journals/blogs feature attached to profiles. Members could use it similarly if they wanted by keeping a page in there of threads they want to remember about.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Scholars DIR is actually gone now. We quietly poofed it during some restructuring several months back because it wasn't getting used and most threads in there were not actually what it was originally intended for. It was supposed to be a space where only scholars would be able to post content. At any rate, for something like Wikia integration, the site owner would have to be the person to implement something like that. There may be a Xenforo module/extension (whatever they are called) that lets you do it, and it may require a monetary investment to support.

Personally, I'd rather see the introduction of a journals/blogs feature attached to profiles. Members could use it similarly if they wanted by keeping a page in there of threads they want to remember about.

The only argument I'd have for a wiki over journals is that it is something shared and communal and can be added to and change over time. But the journal/blog idea has the advantage of cutting down moderation, (i.e. you only have to check it once and not police it in case it gets re-edited). Plus it has the advantage of being personal so its more likely to be used.

Is the journal idea easier? I have a vague sense RF had intergrated blogs/journals in the past from the very early threads (2004/5). I'm not sure what happened there.

Like crazy easy.

The hard part would be actually putting together the bare bones of it so it was usable.

Couldn't you use the RF forum layout as a guide like replicating a list of DIRs as a starting point? After that I'm not sure what would happen.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Couldn't you use the RF forum layout as a guide like replicating a list of DIRs as a starting point? After that I'm not sure what would happen.

What exactly is it you see as being the content of this wikia, so we're clear?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What exactly is it you see as being the content of this wikia, so we're clear?

What I had in mind is not sentimental but quite practical in a way. As a wiki it would be a very rough history of RF that acts as a way of cataloging threads. (In theory you could just do it based on the month/year the thread is started but that's probably too vague although workable). Then you can start to pull out particular subjects and use the "catalogue" to reference what responses are most likely to come up to particular themes. It becomes a blueprint for pattern recognition so you can post "smarter" to win discussions or at least a better chance in them. Maybe throw in a few member biographies to liven it up and give it depth.

It would be potentially useful because it creates "points of reference" of what happened before in previous threads so you can anticipate what you may get in new threads and therefore build on and improve responses. i.e. It creates a feedback loop in which the more we know about RF, the better you can anticipate the responses. (if it worked) it could then make those who use it better posters on the forum.

It also tells RF's story as a community and we can use it to build that up too. But mainly its to figure out "how the game is played" if you will. ;)
 

Kirran

Premium Member
What I had in mind is not sentimental but quite practical in a way. As a wiki it would be a very rough history of RF that acts as a way of cataloging threads. (In theory you could just do it based on the month/year the thread is started but that's probably too vague although workable). Then you can start to pull out particular subjects and use the "catalogue" to reference what responses are most likely to come up to particular themes. It becomes a blueprint for pattern recognition so you can post "smarter" to win discussions or at least a better chance in them. Maybe throw in a few member biographies to liven it up and give it depth.

It would be potentially useful because it creates "points of reference" of what happened before in previous threads so you can anticipate what you may get in new threads and therefore build on and improve responses. i.e. It creates a feedback loop in which the more we know about RF, the better you can anticipate the responses. (if it worked) it could then make those who use it better posters on the forum.

It also tells RF's story as a community and we can use it to build that up too. But mainly its to figure out "how the game is played" if you will. ;)

So like summaries of all the threads?
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I might have repeated some stuff here as I haven't read the full thread.

What this sounds like in the OP is a form of organization, which I believe there is some tagging system that has been implemented. Any system that isn't automated will probably not get used, so it will probably fail from the get go. The system needs to have some AI to digest the content and be able to organize on its own and then later self correct itself. You might try to incorporate web crawlers like Google and only inspect internally, but you'll need someone with SW expertise unless there is a tool already for this forum SW.

Now bring in the logistics... This forum software is XenForo. If we still wanted to continue with a wiki, then XenForo would need to support it. If XenForo doesn't suppot it, then he'll need added SW and integrations back to XenForo. It gets complicated very fast, all of which needs maintenance and support. We don't know the owners current costs or any added costs to support this so we don't even know if its feasible from a cost perspective.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, I did some digging. Lookie here!

VaultWiki

So basically, this won't happen unless the site owner facilitates it. It costs money on a continuous basis or a decent upfront lifetime fee, which is what I expected.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So like summaries of all the threads?

Probably not that insane, but at the start it may be like that. Say you take a dozen threads, give them a summary and a date on a single wiki page. Then you can say "ok- this relates to that subject" and you can create new wiki pages based on it and you've got the material to reference to. Then you can add them as you go along and you essentially "build" from the original material.

E.g. If you put all the threads with political compass results together:
i) RF has few- if any-"authoritarians".
ii) RF is overwhelmingly in the green sqaure (libertarian left).

Political Compass Results

E.g. Or even a list of 20 threads with "most replies" and then a glance at the list tells you which topics are in it.

It's flexible enough that people could add stuff onto it but it might make all that information a little more comprehensible. Then you get an idea of what the forum actually is like, etc.

Well, I did some digging. Lookie here!

VaultWiki

So basically, this won't happen unless the site owner facilitates it. It costs money on a continuous basis or a decent upfront lifetime fee, which is what I expected.

Thanks Q. :) I think it will have to be the wikia then (if at all).

If by some miracle we did it on the wikia and turned out to be used a lot it may be worth considering but I'm not seeing anyone spending money unless there is clearly demonstrated a need/real demand for it.
 
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