A Universe from Nothing?

[metis]

I take the creation accounts as allegory whereas we took an older Babylonian narrative and reworked it to reflect our morals and values. If one looks at it that, way, then the teachings become much more obvious and important in countering the other religion's beliefs and practices in play 3000 years ago. Viewed in this manner, the revolutionary aspect of these accounts vis-a-vis other religion's accounts become more apparent.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I take the creation accounts as allegory whereas we took an older Babylonian narrative and reworked it to reflect our morals and values. If one looks at it that, way, then the teachings become much more obvious and important in countering the other religion's beliefs and practices in play 3000 years ago. Viewed in this manner, the revolutionary aspect of these accounts vis-a-vis other religion's accounts become more apparent.

Agreed it is allegory. And yes, the roots of the Sabbath are of Sumerian/Babylonian origin, I remember reading one of the laws were that masters of households were to give the seventh day of the week off as a day of rest for all their beasts of burden and their slaves, this iirc around three thousand years BC. I think most religions, like empires, rise, then develop a conservative nature to preserve the status quo, followed by the inevitable devolution and dispersion. Cycles are a principle of the universe, every things is changing but nothing is changing..

 

[MHz]

I take the creation accounts as allegory whereas we took an older Babylonian narrative and reworked it to reflect our morals and values. If one looks at it that, way, then the teachings become much more obvious and important in countering the other religion's beliefs and practices in play 3000 years ago. Viewed in this manner, the revolutionary aspect of these accounts vis-a-vis other religion's accounts become more apparent.

That only holds true for Ge:1 and Ge:2 if it is about the creation of the dust in Ge:1 and the marriage of the Spirit of God and Adam and Eve were the result. A man and a woman who are married.

I think the Ge:2 version is also the same process that happen en the Garden (the Holy Land) area of Eden (the whole planet) is also the pattern that will be repeated when New Jerusalem from Re:21-22 lands back on this earth. The whole earth should be in the same form it was when it was 'melted' by the fire from God in Heaven when Satan and the remaining fallen angels are sent to the fiery lake after the 1,000 year reign.

The time creation takes in the new earth could be a literal 6 days if the rate of resurrection is the same as it is in the last few hours of the first day of His return. That is the day the 7th trump sounds in Re:11. That would be the pattern used as mankind moved out into the new earth. Living water from the river in New Jerusalem would be the first step of mankind as immortals and knowing about good and evil and unlike the 'sons of God' in Ge:6 mankind will not sin at any time.

The Jerusalem in Isaiah:65 is New Jerusalem and the people that are sinners and are killed by the sword are basically 'the rest' from Re:20 and their punishment is hell while the people that are alive would be the whole House pf Israel as defined in Eze:37 and the Church from the NT. Combined they act out the prophecy from the whole of Zec:14 a thousand times and then Satan is released and the people alive for that time are removed from the earth and end up in New Jerusalem from Re:21 and that will be their eternal home.

The ones undergoing punishment in Isa:65 are resurrected to life in Re:20 at the GWT event and they also enter New Jerusalem until it lands on the new earth and the gates open and they exit the City and begin to make their homes outside the cities and they come for the Feast of the Tabernacles like the Church did in Zec:14. Since the Angels are in their prophecied new heaven the universe is open for mankind to go around making pastures for the same flesh that Adam and Eve were given dominion over.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

The 'rapture' of people on the earth to God in Heaven is done when the fire is sending Satan to the fiery lake. Not only has this earth reached it's end but so has heaven. (entire universe as we know it) and this is how/when mankind is sinless and immortal and are leaving this earth to end up in heaven with God forever more. The vision they get is God and the Lamb sitting on a Throne (Holy Spirit) in New Jerusalem.
From the day Christ claimed the Earth for God in Re:11 the people alive at the end of that day are immortal and sinless but it is not time for the end of the fallen angels. Mankind has until that last day to be perfected so they do not end up in the fiery lake with Satan and the others.

Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

 

[MHz]

I agree that the Genesis creation story is one starting with creation of Earth in the early solar system, but have not considered the length of times for a day, and generally considered the seventh day started with the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Eden. An eighth day, hmmm, will wonder about it...

For Adam to die on the 'same day' he sinned you have to apply the 1,000 years for 1 day since he died 70 days short being 1,000 years old. In Ge:6 God made it so man would die before they were 120 years old. Moses became the first man to be subjected to that determination and it will apply until the first day of the 1,000 year reign only no person will ever sin so they never die again.
Angels are under the same Law that mankind comes under in Re:21 and the ones alive for the 1,000 years are the first ones to come under that Law again and Adam will not die when he has been alive for 1,000 years and 1 day, nor will anybody else.

The Law changed to the 10 Commandments when the last giant died in the exodus wars. That was the reason for the wars, the other nations that were involved had some children taken that were marries into the 12 tribes so when the 'whole House of Israel' is resurrected the family of those children are also included as belonging to that group and they will all live in the promised land for the whole of the 1,000 years.

All of that needed to be said before I could promote the dating of Noah's flood. Again the Garden area from Ge:2 needs to be used in part. The animals Adam named in Ge:2 were brought to him in the Garden so those ones would be the ones on the Ark. The flood was roughly 360 days long and that would be 1 year using the time imposed om Moses. In Adam's view 360 days is equal to 360,000 years and that would cover the time an ice-age lasted. The times given would be 40 days of rain which is converted to mean 40,000 years to build the ice and in the flood that would be when the rain fell on the tops of high hills and the mountain tops. The 150 days after the rain stopped would be 150,000 years for the snow to melt so you could see the mountain tops and then the rest of the time would add up to 360,000 years.
With that flood the oceans rose more that 400ft and the water required to cover all the land on the globe would only raise the water level in the ocean about 5 1/2 ft. That would also open the door for 1,000,s of flood stories from around the globe but for the Garden area God would have 'arranged' for a flood that lasted 360 days or just 1 year and that alone puts it at odds and so the topic is confused by God intentionally.
The reason is that during the time leading up to the trumps from Revelations is supposed to have faith being based only on what a person gets out of the Bible so having all sorts of historical item would detract from that determination. Lack of any artifacts just means God is perfect at covering His tracks if that is desired.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

For Adam to die on the 'same day' he sinned you have to apply the 1,000 years for 1 day since he died 70 days short being 1,000 years old. In Ge:6 God made it so man would die before they were 120 years old. Moses became the first man to be subjected to that determination and it will apply until the first day of the 1,000 year reign only no person will ever sin so they never die again.
Angels are under the same Law that mankind comes under in Re:21 and the ones alive for the 1,000 years are the first ones to come under that Law again and Adam will not die when he has been alive for 1,000 years and 1 day, nor will anybody else.

The Law changed to the 10 Commandments when the last giant died in the exodus wars. That was the reason for the wars, the other nations that were involved had some children taken that were marries into the 12 tribes so when the 'whole House of Israel' is resurrected the family of those children are also included as belonging to that group and they will all live in the promised land for the whole of the 1,000 years.

All of that needed to be said before I could promote the dating of Noah's flood. Again the Garden area from Ge:2 needs to be used in part. The animals Adam named in Ge:2 were brought to him in the Garden so those ones would be the ones on the Ark. The flood was roughly 360 days long and that would be 1 year using the time imposed om Moses. In Adam's view 360 days is equal to 360,000 years and that would cover the time an ice-age lasted. The times given would be 40 days of rain which is converted to mean 40,000 years to build the ice and in the flood that would be when the rain fell on the tops of high hills and the mountain tops. The 150 days after the rain stopped would be 150,000 years for the snow to melt so you could see the mountain tops and then the rest of the time would add up to 360,000 years.
With that flood the oceans rose more that 400ft and the water required to cover all the land on the globe would only raise the water level in the ocean about 5 1/2 ft. That would also open the door for 1,000,s of flood stories from around the globe but for the Garden area God would have 'arranged' for a flood that lasted 360 days or just 1 year and that alone puts it at odds and so the topic is confused by God intentionally.
The reason is that during the time leading up to the trumps from Revelations is supposed to have faith being based only on what a person gets out of the Bible so having all sorts of historical item would detract from that determination. Lack of any artifacts just means God is perfect at covering His tracks if that is desired.

MHz, thank you for your detailed report. I am not sure how you get that time space mathematical detail out of the scripture, but if it makes sense to you then that's fine by me.

 

[metis]

That only holds true for Ge:1 and Ge:2 if it is about the creation of the dust in Ge:1 and the marriage of the Spirit of God and Adam and Eve were the result. A man and a woman who are married.

I think the Ge:2 version is also the same process that happen en the Garden (the Holy Land) area of Eden (the whole planet) is also the pattern that will be repeated when New Jerusalem from Re:21-22 lands back on this earth. The whole earth should be in the same form it was when it was 'melted' by the fire from God in Heaven when Satan and the remaining fallen angels are sent to the fiery lake after the 1,000 year reign.

The time creation takes in the new earth could be a literal 6 days if the rate of resurrection is the same as it is in the last few hours of the first day of His return. That is the day the 7th trump sounds in Re:11. That would be the pattern used as mankind moved out into the new earth. Living water from the river in New Jerusalem would be the first step of mankind as immortals and knowing about good and evil and unlike the 'sons of God' in Ge:6 mankind will not sin at any time.

The Jerusalem in Isaiah:65 is New Jerusalem and the people that are sinners and are killed by the sword are basically 'the rest' from Re:20 and their punishment is hell while the people that are alive would be the whole House pf Israel as defined in Eze:37 and the Church from the NT. Combined they act out the prophecy from the whole of Zec:14 a thousand times and then Satan is released and the people alive for that time are removed from the earth and end up in New Jerusalem from Re:21 and that will be their eternal home.

The ones undergoing punishment in Isa:65 are resurrected to life in Re:20 at the GWT event and they also enter New Jerusalem until it lands on the new earth and the gates open and they exit the City and begin to make their homes outside the cities and they come for the Feast of the Tabernacles like the Church did in Zec:14. Since the Angels are in their prophecied new heaven the universe is open for mankind to go around making pastures for the same flesh that Adam and Eve were given dominion over.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

The 'rapture' of people on the earth to God in Heaven is done when the fire is sending Satan to the fiery lake. Not only has this earth reached it's end but so has heaven. (entire universe as we know it) and this is how/when mankind is sinless and immortal and are leaving this earth to end up in heaven with God forever more. The vision they get is God and the Lamb sitting on a Throne (Holy Spirit) in New Jerusalem.
From the day Christ claimed the Earth for God in Re:11 the people alive at the end of that day are immortal and sinless but it is not time for the end of the fallen angels. Mankind has until that last day to be perfected so they do not end up in the fiery lake with Satan and the others.

Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Thanks for your response, but I'm still far more inclined to take the allegorical perspective, especially since the author(s) would likely have been familiar with the Babylonian narrative, thus refuting its teachings.

 

[MHz]

Moses is credited with the first 5 books. I doubt he could relate to Babylon as it came around centuries after Moses died.

 

[MHz]

MHz, thank you for your detailed report. I am not sure how you get that time space mathematical detail out of the scripture, but if it makes sense to you then that's fine by me.

That 120 years determination also works in the new earth verses.
A person is called an infant until the age of 20 and then they take on the title of child (of God) and 100 years later they are judged and when found to not be a sinner they take on the title of 'old man'. A sinner between the ages of 20-120 would be sent to the fiery lake.

Isa:65:19:
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa:65:20:
There shall be no more thence an infant of days,
nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
for the child shall die an hundred years old;
but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

[viole]

4,000,000,000BC-400,000,000BC Day 2

That is 3,600,000,000 years.

400,000,000BC-40,000,000BC Day 3

That is 360,000,000 years

40,000,000BC-4,000,000BC Day 4

That is 36,000,000 years

4,000,000BC-400,000BC Day 5

That is 3,600,000 years

400,000BC-40,000BC Day 6

That is 360,000 years

40,000BC-4,000BC Day 7

That is 36,000 years. Long weekend.

Let's go on, by induction.

4,000BC-400BC Day 8
400BC-40BC Day 9
40BC-4BC Day 10
4BC-0.4BC Day 11
0.4BC-0.04BC Day 12
0.04BC-0.004BC Day 13
0.004BC-0.0004 BC Day 14: next sabbath, about 2.3 human days weekend.
Etc.

Looks like God's days are getting awfully short, as our Sabbaths and Jesus was born at day +infinite.

Ciao

- viole

 

[MHz]

That is 36,000 years. Long weekend.

Let's go on, by induction.

4,000BC-400BC Day 8
400BC-40BC Day 9
40BC-4BC Day 10
4BC-0.4BC Day 11
0.4BC-0.04BC Day 12
0.04BC-0.004BC Day 13
0.004BC-0.0004 BC Day 14: next sabbath, about 2.3 human days weekend.
Etc.

Looks like God's days are getting awfully short, as our Sabbaths and Jesus was born at day +infinite.

Ciao

- viole

Perhaps you missed the part that says after the creation days were finished that nothing new would ever be created.
If you want to play with the numbers in Revelations it would another 3.6B years before the sun melts the earth. Darn shame the science predicts the sun becoming a red giant

 

[Segev Moran]

I'm not sure if I can post a poll on here but who here believes that the universe originated from nothing? As some of the major scientific theories from the 20th century claimed or was there an originator of some sort? Doesn't have to be God necessarily in your opinion. Who believes the universe has no beginning? I'm just curious as to what you guys believe with regard to this topic and what the basis of your belief would be?

Which specific theory do you speak of? each defines "Nothing" in a different way.

 

[Segev Moran]

Perhaps you missed the part that says after the creation days were finished that nothing new would ever be created.
If you want to play with the numbers in Revelations it would another 3.6B years before the sun melts the earth. Darn shame the science predicts the sun becoming a red giant

Intrigued.. Where does it say that?
Can you point me please?

 

[Polymath257]

Even the Bible doesn't claim the universe to be created from 'nothing'. In fact, the primordial existence was 'without form and void', but clearly had extension (darkness was on the face of the deep).

Of course, the Biblical account is pure mythology. And the original concept had the 'deep' as water. But those claiming Krausse changed the rules are simply ignoring what their own myths actually say.

 

[Thief]

Even the Bible doesn't claim the universe to be created from 'nothing'. In fact, the primordial existence was 'without form and void', but clearly had extension (darkness was on the face of the deep).

Of course, the Biblical account is pure mythology. And the original concept had the 'deep' as water. But those claiming Krausse changed the rules are simply ignoring what their own myths actually say.

and Someone had to be First.....

no myth

 

[Polymath257]

and Someone had to be First.....

no myth

Why is it a 'someone' that had to be first rather than a 'something'?

Yes, a myth. Pure and simple.

 

[Thief]

Why is it a 'someone' that had to be first rather than a 'something'?

Yes, a myth. Pure and simple.

there were no equations....in the beginning

 

[Polymath257]

there were no equations....in the beginning

So? Humans make up equations to help us understand the universe. But the universe was there *long* before the equations.

You still didn't answer why there has to be a 'someone' rather than just a 'something'.

 

[Thief]

So? Humans make up equations to help us understand the universe. But the universe was there *long* before the equations.

You still didn't answer why there has to be a 'someone' rather than just a 'something'.

substance is 'self' creating?
'self' motivating?
'self' regulating?

and each element 'knows' how to behave 'itself'?

 

[George-ananda]

A Universe from Nothing?

I heard a pretty good comment from Rupert Sheldrake on this as it relates to the Science and Religion debate. It went something like this: If you grant Science that one great miracle, then it thinks it can explain the rest.

I personally have come to believe Consciousness is the fundamental aspect of the universe and the material is just its play/drama.

 

[Polymath257]

substance is 'self' creating?
'self' motivating?
'self' regulating?

and each element 'knows' how to behave 'itself'?

Self-creating is a misnomer. The universe has existed whenever there was time.

Self-motivating and self-regulating and 'knowing how to behave' are simply that things obey natural laws. Yes, they do.