A Universal Issue we need to understand

[Pegg]

People often complain that God allows suffering and evil to exist, that he doesnt care, that he is indifferent, that he must be evil if he allows bad things to happen.... and some have even concluded that the existence of suffering and wickedness proves that God does not exist.

There is a reason why God does not intervene in the affairs of man and its important for us to understand what that reason is.

It concerns the issue of UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY.

I like the way the Watchtower illustrates this issue:

Suppose the father of one family challenges the father of another to a contest that will prove which man is stronger. That issue could be decided quickly. Strength could be measured by lifting rocks. The father who lifted the heaviest rock would be the stronger man.

But suppose the challenge involved which father truly loves his sons and daughters and whether they love him in return. Or what if the challenge raises the question of which father manages his family in the best way? Neither a display of strength nor mere words would be adequate. Sufficient time would have to pass, careful observation would be required, and right conclusions would have to be drawn in order for the issue to be settled.

How much time would be needed to answer such a challenge? Perhaps the fathers children are only babies at the time that this challenge is raised and therefore the father would need to allow many years to pass before the issue could be settled.


The issue of Universal Sovereignty is similar. Is Gods rulership what mankind need in order to live happy peaceful lives? Or would mankind be better off without God? would it be more productive for us to make our own decisions and govern ourselves in our own way?

The only way to truly know who should rule mankind is to allow mankind time to rule themselves. And that is what God has done and its why he does not intervene in mankinds affairs. He is allowing time for the universes greatest question to be answered.

 

[kjw47]

Yes Pegg, I agree with your posting. When one knows God and respects God, and loves God and serves God---- they know 100% for sure--God chooses right everytime, in every decision. They realize this system has to be this way--the issues of universal sovereignty will be settled once and for all time, so the issues can never be raised again.

 

[Big_TJ]

I don't think this makes a lot of sense if you are going from the bible. God, on more than 1 occasion, biblically, has intervened in man's affairs. For example, he has taken steps to rid the earth of "bad" people on more than one occasion. There is also evidence, biblically, that he force at least one person to do something against his "free will." He also instructed persons not to do harm to at least one specific person in the bible. So the pronunciation that "God does not intervene with mankind's affairs" is demonstratively false, biblically.

And we know that God have not made the correct decision 100% of the time; if he did, he would not have said that he regretted some of his decisions.

This is the problem that I have with Christians: you guys state your personal opinions and emotions as gospel - which is in direct contradiction with what the beloved bible states. olarbaby:

 

[kjw47]

I don't think this makes a lot of sense if you are going from the bible. God, on more than 1 occasion, biblically, has intervened in man's affairs. For example, he has taken steps to rid the earth of "bad" people on more than one occasion. There is also evidence, biblically, that he force at least one person to do something against his "free will." He also instructed persons not to do harm to at least one specific person in the bible. So the pronunciation that "God does not intervene with mankind's affairs" is demonstratively false, biblically.

And we know that God have not made the correct decision 100% of the time; if he did, he would not have said that he regretted some of his decisions.

This is the problem that I have with Christians: you guys state your personal opinions and emotions as gospel - which is in direct contradiction with what the beloved bible states. olarbaby:

Gods will---it cannot be stopped--he intervenes to make his will occur-- The issues raised against him are being proved false, once and for all time--it is almost done--Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope. Live for entrance into it now.

 

[Pegg]

I don't think this makes a lot of sense if you are going from the bible. God, on more than 1 occasion, biblically, has intervened in man's affairs. For example, he has taken steps to rid the earth of "bad" people on more than one occasion. There is also evidence, biblically, that he force at least one person to do something against his "free will." He also instructed persons not to do harm to at least one specific person in the bible. So the pronunciation that "God does not intervene with mankind's affairs" is demonstratively false, biblically.

since the days of Noahs flood, we have not seen anything like that sort of intervention. God has only intervened when it served to keep his purpose on track. Removing the nations out of the promised land was for the purpose of ensuring Isreal had a land where pure worship could be practiced and to provide a place for the birth of the Messiah.

So his intervention in the past was only to ensure his purposes were not thwarted by his enemies. Nations like India, China/Asia, Europe and Pacific Islands saw no intervention up until 100 odd years ago. He has had no dealings with those nations since they became nations thousands of years ago. So it is true that God does not intervene... he has only intervened between his servants and those who were causing his servants trouble.

And we know that God have not made the correct decision 100% of the time; if he did, he would not have said that he regretted some of his decisions.

In the Hebrew language, to feel regret can mean to change one’s mind or intention. And there are examples of times when God has changed his mind on a certain judgement.... but those changes were because of the repentence of the persons judged. For example, the people of Ninevah repented when they were given Gods judgement against them and God mercifully withdrew his intention to destroy them. Why? because Jehovah is reasonable and is willing to alter his intended actions when people respond in a positive way.

His 'regret' is never because he had made a mistake.

 

[Big_TJ]

Gods will---it cannot be stopped--he intervenes to make his will occur-- The issues raised against him are being proved false, once and for all time--it is almost done--Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope. Live for entrance into it now.

That's my point.. So it is demonstratively false to state that "God does not intervene in human's affair1." I am glad we seem to be in agreement that, if this is preached a gospel, it is merely someone's personal view.

 

[Big_TJ]

since the days of Noahs flood, we have not seen anything like that sort of intervention. God has only intervened when it served to keep his purpose on track. Removing the nations out of the promised land was for the purpose of ensuring Isreal had a land where pure worship could be practiced and to provide a place for the birth of the Messiah.

So his intervention in the past was only to ensure his purposes were not thwarted by his enemies. Nations like India, China/Asia, Europe and Pacific Islands saw no intervention up until 100 odd years ago. He has had no dealings with those nations since they became nations thousands of years ago. So it is true that God does not intervene... he has only intervened between his servants and those who were causing his servants trouble.



In the Hebrew language, to feel regret can mean to change one’s mind or intention. And there are examples of times when God has changed his mind on a certain judgement.... but those changes were because of the repentence of the persons judged. For example, the people of Ninevah repented when they were given Gods judgement against them and God mercifully withdrew his intention to destroy them. Why? because Jehovah is reasonable and is willing to alter his intended actions when people respond in a positive way.

His 'regret' is never because he had made a mistake.

So what does it mean when he says he regret making man in Genesis 6:6? I somehow cannot see "change one's mind or intention" in that verse. In fact, it seems to directly contradict your statement that his "regret is never because he had made a mistake." I think that if someone did something and then said he regretted it, and goes on to suggest that it "pains his heart" that's pretty much saying that he thought he made a mistake - what do you think?

Furthermore, the concept that God would "change [his] mind or intention" seem to directly contradict Malachi 3:6.

So here is an example of us displaying our own opinions as if it is biblical teaching.

 

[Pegg]

So what does it mean when he says he regret making man in Genesis 6:6? I somehow cannot see "change one's mind or intention" in that verse. In fact, it seems to directly contradict your statement that his "regret is never because he had made a mistake." I think that if someone did something and then said he regretted it, and goes on to suggest that it "pains his heart" that's pretty much saying that he thought he made a mistake - what do you think?

if he thought creating humans was a mistake, why did he let Noah and his family survive and why did he subsequently allow them to reproduce more humans?

Obviously he did not change his mind with regard to filling the earth with mankind. So that should tell us that the 'regret' meant something else.

Furthermore, the concept that God would "change [his] mind or intention" seem to directly contradict Malachi 3:6.

So here is an example of us displaying our own opinions as if it is biblical teaching.

Jonah 3:3  So Jo′nah got up and went to Nin′e·veh in obedience to the word of Jehovah. Now Nin′e·veh was a very large city—a walking distance of three days. 4 Then Jo′nah entered the city, and walking a day’s journey, he was proclaiming: “In just 40 days more, Nin′e·veh will be overthrown.”
5 And the men of Nin′e·veh put faith in God, and they proclaimed a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. ....

10 When the true God saw what they did, how they had turned back from their evil ways, he reconsidered the calamity that he said he would bring on them, and he did not bring it.

This account shows that God sometimes has reason to change his mind and had done so. He is not unreasonable, nor does he flex his muscle just because he can. All his ways are justice and mercy.... he knows how to do right and is impelled to do what is right. Jonah was angry that God changed his mind...Jonah wanted to see the city and its people destroyed as he had preached to them... But God is higher then man and his ways and judgements are far higher and more noble then the those of man.

 

[kjw47]

That's my point.. So it is demonstratively false to state that "God does not intervene in human's affair1." I am glad we seem to be in agreement that, if this is preached a gospel, it is merely someone's personal view.

He only intervenes if his will is being challenged or trying to alter it.

 

[Big_TJ]

He only intervenes if his will is being challenged or trying to alter it.

Thanks. Do you have a biblical reference to this assertion? Or is it your personal view?

 

[Big_TJ]

if he thought creating humans was a mistake, why did he let Noah and his family survive and why did he subsequently allow them to reproduce more humans?

Obviously he did not change his mind with regard to filling the earth with mankind. So that should tell us that the 'regret' meant something else.

Simple: If a young lady 'regretted' getting pregnant at age 15 but chose not to have an abortion, I do not think that that is sufficient to say that she did not regret getting pregnant so young. Likewise, if Jehovah regretted making man but still allow man to prolong/survive, it is not sufficient to say that He did not regret making man in the first place. What do you propose the 'regret' in Genesis 6:6 means?

Jonah 3:3  So Jo′nah got up and went to Nin′e·veh in obedience to the word of Jehovah. Now Nin′e·veh was a very large city—a walking distance of three days. 4 Then Jo′nah entered the city, and walking a day’s journey, he was proclaiming: “In just 40 days more, Nin′e·veh will be overthrown.”
5 And the men of Nin′e·veh put faith in God, and they proclaimed a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. ....

10 When the true God saw what they did, how they had turned back from their evil ways, he reconsidered the calamity that he said he would bring on them, and he did not bring it.

This account shows that God sometimes has reason to change his mind and had done so. He is not unreasonable, nor does he flex his muscle just because he can. All his ways are justice and mercy.... he knows how to do right and is impelled to do what is right. Jonah was angry that God changed his mind...Jonah wanted to see the city and its people destroyed as he had preached to them... But God is higher then man and his ways and judgements are far higher and more noble then the those of man.

This more strengthened my point. My point was that the idea of Jehovah 'changing his mind/intention', along with the above scriptures that you now mentioned, directly contradict Malachi 3:6. You pointing out more contradiction does not make it goes away; what do you think?

 

[Pegg]

Simple: If a young lady 'regretted' getting pregnant at age 15 but chose not to have an abortion, I do not think that that is sufficient to say that she did not regret getting pregnant so young. Likewise, if Jehovah regretted making man but still allow man to prolong/survive, it is not sufficient to say that He did not regret making man in the first place. What do you propose the 'regret' in Genesis 6:6 means?

Here is a direct quote from the WT on the issue of regret:

Gen 6:6—In what sense can it be said that Jehovah “felt regrets” that he had made man? Here the Hebrew word translated “felt regrets” pertains to a change of attitude or intention. Jehovah is perfect and therefore did not make a mistake in creating man. However, he did have a change of mental attitude as regards the wicked pre-Flood generation. God turned from the attitude of the Creator of humans to that of a destroyer of them because of his displeasure with their wickedness. The fact that he preserved some humans shows that his regrets were confined to those who had become wicked.—2*Peter 2:5,*9.

This more strengthened my point. My point was that the idea of Jehovah 'changing his mind/intention', along with the above scriptures that you now mentioned, directly contradict Malachi 3:6. You pointing out more contradiction does not make it goes away; what do you think?

Malachi is not saying that God does not change 'his mind' on matters. He's saying he has not changed in his 'purposes' or his 'will toward mankind'

Here it is nicely explained by the WT...

Through his prophet Malachi, God declared: “I am Jehovah; I have not changed.” (Malachi 3:6) Commenting on this verse, French Bible scholar L. Fillion observed that this declaration is closely associated with the accomplishment of divine promises. “Jehovah could have annihilated his rebellious people,” wrote Fillion, “but being unchangeable in his promises, he will, in spite of everything, be faithful to the promises he made in the past.” God’s promises, whether to an individual, a nation, or all mankind, will not be forgotten but be carried out in his due time. “He has remembered his covenant even to time indefinite, the word that he commanded, to a thousand generations.”—Psalm 105:8.
How, though, can we be sure that Jehovah has not changed his original purpose with regard to the earth? We can be sure of this because throughout God’s inspired Word, the Bible, we find mention of the divine purpose to give the earth to obedient mankind. (Psalm 25:13; 37:9, 22, 29,*34) Furthermore, the Scriptures describe those blessed by Jehovah as dwelling in security, each sitting “under his vine and under his fig tree,” with “no one making them tremble.” (Micah 4:4; Ezekiel 34:28) Those chosen by Jehovah “will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.” They will enjoy peace even with the beasts of the field.—Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:21,*25.

 

[Big_TJ]

Hmmm. Ok, thank you.