"A" Torath Mosheh View of Human Suffering and Responsibility

[Ehav4Ever]

ok, you have answered many questions for me, thank you and I am looking forward to the fulfillment of all of God's promises.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't go by Chabad translations. Again, I don't go by anyone's translation. Everything starts and ends for me at the Hebrew text. Even Chabad would agree that I should only go by the Hebrew text and not their translation.

Also, as a JW I thought you didn't beleive in the Oral Torah. Chabad uses the Oral Torah. Why would you rely on a translation by them knowing that they would use the Oral Torah to convey it? They even include the Rashi commentary in their translation. Do you accept Rashi commentary as valid?

In other words, why are you asking me to believe what chabad.org says in translating when you say I should believe them about the oral torah? Either God told Moses to write nothing more or less than what He dictated about the Law or He did not. I thank you again for letting me know because it sadly confirms my experience.
I will share one last experience with you -- my family celebrated Passover every year. My uncle was a Sephardic Jew, the rest of my family were Ashkenazim. I did not become one of Jehovah's Witnesses until my adult years but as time went on, I decided to go with the Witnesses, it was a very important decision for me. I went to my last family seder and I mentioned how I was studying the Bible with the Witnesses and was learning that what the Bible said about the Jews leaving Egypt by divine guidance was really true! And my uncle, the one conducting the family observance, said: "Oh, you can't believe everything in the Bible, it's TRADITION, that's all." That was the last Seder I attended. Now we are speaking English, but yes -- from two different viewpoints. Not quite like two different languages where one cannot understand the other, but thanks again! I appreciate the discussion.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In other words, why are you asking me to believe what chabad.org says in translating when you say I should believe them about the oral torah?

Quite the contrary. I know that you don't beleive with what Chabad holds by and I know that you don't agree with anything they produce. You are a JW and we all know that the JW movement is an offshoot of Christianity. As such it is strange to me that you turn towards the translation of a group with whom the JW's disagree. Especially since we all know that translation is a form of commentary.

Chabad is heretical for JW's and not a part of that 144,000. For Chabad the JW movement doesn't enter into the picture and thus it isn't important.

Chabad, just like all ancient Torath Mosheh Jewish communities hold that the Hebrew text and the Oral Torah are THE source of what Hashem transmitted to Mosheh ben-Amram and the entire Jewish people who were at Mount Sinai.

Chabad would also agree with me that translations are not final sources of information for what the Hebrew text means. Only the Hebrew text of the written Torah and the Oral Torah are final sources. Chabad also agrees with me that Tehillim (what you call Psalms) and Mishlei (what you call proverbs) both contain Oral Torah that was written down after not previously being writtene down.

Again, you are a JW. If you go by what the JW movment teach how you guys received your bible then we are definately not talking about the same thing at all. I.e. Torath Moshe and Christian/JW movement doctrine don't align.

BTW this all way off topic from the OP. Do you have any comments about the OP?

 

[YoursTrue]

Quite the contrary. I know that you don't beleive with what Chabad holds by and I know that you don't agree with anything they produce. You are a JW and we all know that the JW movement is an offshoot of Christianity. As such it is strange to me that you turn towards the translation of a group with whom the JW's disagree. Especially since we all know that translation is a form of commentary.

Chabad is heretical for JW's and not a part of that 144,000. For Chabad the JW movement doesn't enter into the picture and thus it isn't important.

Chabad, just like all ancient Torath Mosheh Jewish communities hold that the Hebrew text and the Oral Torah are THE source of what Hashem transmitted to Mosheh ben-Amram and the entire Jewish people who were at Mount Sinai.

Chabad would also agree with me that translations are not final sources of information for what the Hebrew text means. Only the Hebrew text of the written Torah and the Oral Torah are final sources. Chabad also agrees with me that Tehillim (what you call Psalms) and Mishlei (what you call proverbs) both contain Oral Torah that was written down after not previously being writtene down.

Again, you are a JW. If you go by what the JW movment teach how you guys received your bible then we are definately not talking about the same thing at all. I.e. Torath Moshe and Christian/JW movement doctrine don't align.

BTW this all way off topic from the OP. Do you have any comments about the OP?

I can go to other sources that verify a point. Why not? We are speaking of translations in English that you can deal with. So I thought that just like I might look at a Catholic or Protestant approved translation, I went to a chabad approved English translation. Sorry you took offense at that. So then the question remains -- are you willing to offer any scriptural quotation in Hebrew with a parallel English translation? If not, we really do speak 2 separate and indistinguishable languages. That is the question.
As far as suffering, I was reading Judges (not sure how you say it in Hebrew) about the situation of Israelite killing fellow Israelite because of a bad situation. I'll leave it there for now.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I can go to other sources that verify a point. Why not? We are speaking of translations in English that you can deal with. So I thought that just like I might look at a Catholic or Protestant approved translation, I went to a chabad approved English translation. Sorry you took offense at that. So then the question remains -- are you willing to offer any scriptural quotation in Hebrew with a parallel English translation? If not, we really do speak 2 separate and indistinguishable languages. That is the question.
As far as suffering, I was reading Judges (not sure how you say it in Hebrew) about the situation of Israelite killing fellow Israelite because of a bad situation. I'll leave it there for now.

Greetings.

I am going to have to be real honest with you. I have viewed your comments on this and other threads on RF for some time now and I really get the impression that you are often not asking questions but instead making statements; some of which are completely incoherent. I also have this growing suspicion that you are not being honest with your true intentions with these “questions” of yours. I get this impression because when most people ask a question there is a) a focus on the question and acceptance that an answer has been provided/or not and b) a start and finish point when the goal of the question has been accomplished.

My personal experience with JW in America and even here in Israel is that you guys walk into certain conversations with a particular goal in mind that you hide and won’t make apparent at the start. My other personal experience has been that JW’s view only their own JW produced information (from the last 100+ years) as valid. Which is fine by me. I have no complaints about that.

As I mentioned early on, I am not going to get into a debate about a translation made by someone because as I stated before, all translation is commentary. The original Hebrew Tanakh is 100% accessible to me other Torath Mosheh Jews because our families and we ourselves invested the time and energy into having that access, just as Hashem commanded all Torath Mosheh Jews to do. So, if I am going to stand on something it will be something from the original Hebrew Tanakh and not someone’s translation of it, no matter who the someone is.

All that being said, I will make you the following offer.

1. If you have real and sincere questions I would be willing to do a Zoom with you.
2. You choose four of your big questions or even challenges. I will answer them using only a) the Hebrew Tanakh and b) every ancient/valid/authentic resource that explains what the source of the Hebrew Tanakh is and what it means.
3. I will present the Hebrew text in the Zoom show where the wording, context, and history support I am stating.
4. I will answer each of your big questions, you can ask two followups, and afterwards we move on.
5. Thirty to forty minutes max for the whole thing.

Would you be willing to do the above?

BTW: I did this once before with a Christian on RF. It seemed to help them understand.

 

[YoursTrue]

Given that Mosheh ben-Amram spoke and transcribed the Torah in a form of Hebrew that is several thousand years old you have to accept that there are some modern terms that can easily be no different than terms used in the Torah.

Essentially, you asked about evolution - a term that on its own can easily mean 30 different things depending on who you talk to. In order to address a question about a topic I need to know what you know about it. Have you heard about Micro-Evolution and Macro-Evolution?

Again, I asked you if you believe in the theory of evolution, macro or micro doesn't really matter. for this point, unless you would like to briefly explain why it does and how. (Yes, I have heard of macro and micro evolution.) Because if you believe in that (evolution micro or macro), you can see that bad, unfortunate things happen. Such as children born with no arms or mental illness or learning problems, among other things. That's just a small part. "Psalm 81:11 - אָֽנֹכִ֨י | יְהֹ֘וָ֚ה אֱלֹהֶ֗יךָ הַ֖מַּֽעַלְךָ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם הַרְחֶב־פִּ֜֗יךָ וַֽאֲמַלְאֵֽהוּ:
OR for English readers:
"I am the Lord, your God, Who brought you up from the land of Egypt; open your mouth wide, and I shall fill it."
That does not mean though that God caused that child to be born in that way. It means He allows it to happen.

Greetings.

I am going to have to be real honest with you. I have viewed your comments on this and other threads on RF for some time now and I really get the impression that you are often not asking questions but instead making statements; some of which are completely incoherent. I also have this growing suspicion that you are not being honest with your true intentions with these “questions” of yours. I get this impression because when most people ask a question there is a) a focus on the question and acceptance that an answer has been provided/or not and b) a start and finish point when the goal of the question has been accomplished.

My personal experience with JW in America and even here in Israel is that you guys walk into certain conversations with a particular goal in mind that you hide and won’t make apparent at the start. My other personal experience has been that JW’s view only their own JW produced information (from the last 100+ years) as valid. Which is fine by me. I have no complaints about that.

As I mentioned early on, I am not going to get into a debate about a translation made by someone because as I stated before, all translation is commentary. The original Hebrew Tanakh is 100% accessible to me other Torath Mosheh Jews because our families and we ourselves invested the time and energy into having that access, just as Hashem commanded all Torath Mosheh Jews to do. So, if I am going to stand on something it will be something from the original Hebrew Tanakh and not someone’s translation of it, no matter who the someone is.

All that being said, I will make you the following offer.

1. If you have real and sincere questions I would be willing to do a Zoom with you.
2. You choose four of your big questions or even challenges. I will answer them using only a) the Hebrew Tanakh and b) every ancient/valid/authentic resource that explains what the source of the Hebrew Tanakh is and what it means.
3. I will present the Hebrew text in the Zoom show where the wording, context, and history support I am stating.
4. I will answer each of your big questions, you can ask two followups, and afterwards we move on.
5. Thirty to forty minutes max for the whole thing.

Would you be willing to do the above?

BTW: I did this once before with a Christian on RF. It seemed to help them understand.

Let me be honest with you as well as much as possible, given circumstances. (1) I am not perfect. (2) that means I can make mistakes. (3) but to sum up, the Bible/Torah speaks of a world to come in which there will be no more death and no more suffering. For this hope I am very grateful. Isaiah 65:17. "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the first ones shall not be remembered, neither shall they come into mind." יזכִּֽי־הִנְנִ֥י בוֹרֵ֛א שָׁמַ֥יִם חֲדָשִׁ֖ים וָאָ֣רֶץ חֲדָשָׁ֑ה וְלֹ֚א תִזָּכַ֙רְנָה֙ הָרִ֣אשֹׁנ֔וֹת וְלֹ֥א תַֽעֲלֶ֖ינָה עַל־לֵֽב:
This is a wonderful prophecy, don't you think? I know it's Shabbos for you now, so I look forward to your answer later.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Again, I asked you if you believe in the theory of evolution, macro or micro doesn't really matter.

It does matter. Both are critical aspects of the definition of the word evolution. You can't even discuss the concept w/o addressing what the word even means.

In any case I have answered your questions about evolution. Next.

 

[YoursTrue]

It does matter. Both are critical aspects of the definition of the word evolution. You can't even discuss the concept w/o addressing what the word even means.

In any case I have answered your questions about evolution. Next.

(OK, next)
In reference to suffering and evolution -- God permits suffering. One day there are to be new heavens and a new earth in which there will be no more suffering. I am not really sure that I understand your point about the difference between macro and micro evolution in reference to suffering. But in either case, however, the following is what is to come --
(Isaiah 65 -- "For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.18But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem and take delight in My people.
The sounds of weeping and crying
will no longer be heard in her."

 

[Ehav4Ever]

(OK, next)
In reference to suffering and evolution -- God permits suffering. One day there are to be new heavens and a new earth in which there will be no more suffering. I am not really sure that I understand your point about the difference between macro and micro evolution in reference to suffering. But in either case, however, the following is what is to come --
(Isaiah 65 -- "For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.18But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem and take delight in My people.
The sounds of weeping and crying
will no longer be heard in her."

I don't see an actual question here. Yet, in any case the OP addressed suffering and the evolution part was already answered.

All that being said, I will make you the following offer.

1. If you have real and sincere questions I would be willing to do a Zoom with you.
2. You choose four of your big questions or even challenges. I will answer them using only a) the Hebrew Tanakh and b) every ancient/valid/authentic resource that explains what the source of the Hebrew Tanakh is and what it means.
3. I will present the Hebrew text in the Zoom, show where the wording, context, and history support what I am stating.
4. I will answer each of your big questions, you can ask two followups, and afterwards we move on.
5. Thirty to forty minutes max for the whole thing.

Would you be willing to do the above?

BTW: I did this once before with a Christian on RF. It seemed to help them understand.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't see an actual question here. Yet, in any case the OP addressed suffering and the evolution part was already answered.

All that being said, I will make you the following offer.

1. If you have real and sincere questions I would be willing to do a Zoom with you.
2. You choose four of your big questions or even challenges. I will answer them using only a) the Hebrew Tanakh and b) every ancient/valid/authentic resource that explains what the source of the Hebrew Tanakh is and what it means.
3. I will present the Hebrew text in the Zoom, show where the wording, context, and history support what I am stating.
4. I will answer each of your big questions, you can ask two followups, and afterwards we move on.
5. Thirty to forty minutes max for the whole thing.

Would you be willing to do the above?

BTW: I did this once before with a Christian on RF. It seemed to help them understand.

Thanks for offer, but I am not going on Zoom with you, although I don't mind meeting you in person one day perhaps. #1. #2, next time I have a question about what you say about God and suffering, I'll address it to you and hope you will answer it. In a manner that I can understand. As far as presenting the Hebrew text, you are welcome to do that in response on a thread, but I would hope you would offer a primary translation so I don't need to learn Hebrew in order to understand what you're telling me (from the Tanach, of course). I don't mind listening to your interpretation of a text, but -- after the Hebrew, then the English, please. Thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't see an actual question here. Yet, in any case the OP addressed suffering and the evolution part was already answered.

All that being said, I will make you the following offer.

1. If you have real and sincere questions I would be willing to do a Zoom with you.
2. You choose four of your big questions or even challenges. I will answer them using only a) the Hebrew Tanakh and b) every ancient/valid/authentic resource that explains what the source of the Hebrew Tanakh is and what it means.
3. I will present the Hebrew text in the Zoom, show where the wording, context, and history support what I am stating.
4. I will answer each of your big questions, you can ask two followups, and afterwards we move on.
5. Thirty to forty minutes max for the whole thing.

Would you be willing to do the above?

BTW: I did this once before with a Christian on RF. It seemed to help them understand.

The question is, by the way, do you believe that God will eliminate all causes of suffering and evil some day, as indicated at Isaiah chapter 65 (as in most English versions). No more sounds of weeping and crying to be heard in Jerusalem...The question is how do you understand this? If it is not up to par for the subject of the thread I apologize and will not offer this question again. (on this thread...)

 

[YoursTrue]

In another thread, well as a question I once answered on Quara, series fo questions were asked which I will summarize in the following way.

1. Why would a serial killer be allowed to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime?
   
2. Is what ever created everything helpless to intervene because of the human free will?
   
3. Why doesn't what ever created everything respond and react at certain times to what human perceive as human suffering?

There are a number of Torath Mosheh views on the above that I will summerize in this and a few other posts.

1. The average human, non-Jewish, has 7 mitzvoth/commands/rules with which to base human life and society on.
   • Two of which relate to your base questions are that a) murder is forbidden and b) that human societies must establish systems of justice and enforce them as well as strictly abide by them. Each of these two can be broken up into volumes of sub-categories.
   • For Jews, as a nation it is 613.
2. As a part of the "type of free will" there are two "basic" sides people. One called the Yetzer HaTov and the Yetzer HaRa.
   • Both sides are important. Both sides have a purpose.
   • These two sides are part of how humans can choose to either receive the good of the reality we are created in or reject it/distance themselves from it; also included is the ability make to make a mess of things.
   • Both are fully in a person's ability to cotrol and both have a use that can work out for the benefit of the individual and for society.
3. All choices have consquences.
   • The personal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
   • The societal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
     
   • By like token the choice hold by them and establish them have personal and collective consquences.
   • Again, for the Jewish nation there are 613.
4. Every person has a type of account that comes along with their actions and the actions of the soceity around them.
   • The action or inaction of the individual and society can tip things in one direction or another.
   • Actions taken or not taken have an affect on this account.
   • Further, there are no such things as small actions that effect nothing. All action or inaction leads somewhere.
   • As humans we don't have the ability to see this account, at least not fully. (I.e. see the following video about what I mean on perspective The fundamentals of space-time: Part 2 - Andrew Pontzen and Tom Whyntie)
5. There is this world and there is a world to come.
   • Using a military metapor, this world is like "boot-camp" and anyone who has done military service knows that boot-camp has many challenges associeted with it that a perspective soldier is expected to overcome personally and as a part of a group.
   • In a good/just military training system the challenges are never impossibe to overcome and the goal of them being there is to get the perspective soldier in the right mindset and physical state to be a proper soldier.
     
   • The world to come is like the accomplishment of surviving and overcoming boot camp. Some people reach the goal, some people quit, and some people make a mess of the whole experience.
6. Death and suffering in this world is not the end. Depending on the type of life a person lived there can be a reward when a person has suffered and when they have overcome adversity.
   • A person can live a life where they receive all the benefits of the good they do only this world.
   • A person can live a life where they will only receive the benefits of the good they do only the world to come.
   • There are some people who are able to receive the good in both.
   • There are some people who live their lives where they will receive all of the results of the bad they do in this world and in the world to come.
   • Receiving the bad in the world to come is often translated into not have a place in the world to come.
   • There is no eternal place of punishment in the world to come.
7. The Creator of all things has the ability to, if you will, "see the bigger picture w/o human eyes." I.e. the Creator of all things is not a human, has no human emotions, and is able to grasp the real bigger picture on a univeral/beyond universal level, so to speak.
   • Combined with that the Creator of all things established the universe in the way it is for the benefit of humanity.
   • Humanity can choose to use that gift correctly or not.
   • The Creator also established ways for those who choose to receive the good and use this gift properly to survive and overcome all challenges, either in this world or in the world to come.
   • The Creator's seeing the bigger picture also includes knowing when to intervene, how to intervene, when to prevent certain types of people from being turning away from evil, knowing when to strengthen those who are doing the right things, knowing when to allow a life to begin, knowing when to allow a life to end, knowing how to allow a life to begin, knowing how to allow a life to end, and knowing the conquences of how humans respond to the reality we are born into and will one day pass away from.
   • Given that we humans have no say in our birth, it would stand to reason that we also only have a certain say in our deaths. For example, all humans are created with an end date, so to speak, we cannot extend that beyond what we were created for. YET, we can lesson it and we can make it a long hard journey by our choices and the choices of the society around us. We can also make it the most joyful life every based again on our choices and the choices in society around us.
   • By like token, given that we ourselves didn't establish any of the universal or phsyical laws of the universe that allows life to be sustained we at some point have to adjust to the fact that there are things that are not in our control and we, while alive in a human body, don't have the ability see all the angles. Yet, we have every right to research, question, challenge, and come to conclusions.
8. Lastly, we humans have the world the way we want it, at any given time.
   • We have been given the power to choose between making things perfect w/o suffering or to make a world that is full of it.
   • This is the way most humans want it and that is the way the Creator has structured it; that is until humans choose to reject the mindsets and actions that individually cause suffering and collectively cause suffering.

Thus, from Torath Mosheh perspective we study our historical texts with the above perspectives in mind - and further that the Torah was given not as a history book but an instructional for dealing with the reality that we are born into.

My comment asking for your comment further on your last point there about the Torah being an instructional for dealing with the reality we are born into. Moses 'met' the Almighty God in the wilderness at the burning bush, and was subsequently taken into the Almighty God's tutelage. Would you agree with that? With regard to your last point, certainly the Almighty used Moses to deliver a message.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

My comment asking for your comment further on your last point there about the Torah being an instructional for dealing with the reality we are born into. Moses 'met' the Almighty God in the wilderness at the burning bush, and was subsequently taken into the Almighty God's tutelage. Would you agree with that? With regard to your last point, certainly the Almighty used Moses to deliver a message.

The following should explain what the Torah is.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The question is, by the way, do you believe that God will eliminate all causes of suffering and evil some day, as indicated at Isaiah chapter 65 (as in most English versions). No more sounds of weeping and crying to be heard in Jerusalem...The question is how do you understand this? If it is not up to par for the subject of the thread I apologize and will not offer this question again. (on this thread...)

Your questions are answered here.

 

[YoursTrue]

Your questions are answered here.

NOWWW I have a question, maybe not integral to the thread, but a question. Which I hope you will answer in terms, your own terms, not someone else's, as to what you think. Some people believe/feel that the account in Torah about Moses is fictional. Or mythical. Here is something from Encyclopedia Britannica about Moses. Wondering what you think. I am particularly interested in the statement about the word "Hebrew." Since you're into words, would you say that the word derived from Habiru? Following from Britannica under the subject of Moses. Mainly interested in the word Hapiru, or Apiru, and its connection with Hebrew. (Thank you.)
"According to the biblical account, Moses’ parents were from the tribe of Levi, one of the groups in Egypt called Hebrews. Originally the term Hebrew had nothing to do with race or ethnic origin. It derived from Habiru, a variant spelling of Ḫapiru (Apiru), a designation of a class of people who made their living by hiring themselves out for various services."

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I am particularly interested in the statement about the word "Hebrew." Since you're into words, would you say that the word derived from Habiru?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This may also help.

 

[YoursTrue]

View attachment 59334

ok, thanks for that. The question arose because some (many, in fact) do believe that it never happened with Moses and the Hebrews in the wilderness as well as Egypt.

 

[YoursTrue]

View attachment 59334

As I understand things, there are some words in Hebrew older texts for which there is no modern way of translating or recognizing the meaning. Not many I suppose, but that's what I recall from my reading. When I come across some words like that I'll let you know.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As I understand things, there are some words in Hebrew older texts for which there is no modern way of translating or recognizing the meaning. Not many I suppose, but that's what I recall from my reading. When I come across some words like that I'll let you know.

Considering the following. The Mishnah and the Talmud are the earliest written dictionaries/lexicons of the Tanakh. ALL, and I mean all, dictionaries of ancient Hebrew derived their sources of ancient Hebrew starting with the Mishnah and the Talmud. Thus, the only way to understand a Hebrew text from more than 3,500 years that was transcribed with an oral dictionary/lexicon is to go to the people who received the oral dictionary/lexicon and decided to write it down.

Thus, if one wants to undrestand an ancient Hebrew word one has to use the most ancient system to do so - knowing that some concepts can't be easily translated w/o loads of commentary. Further, a person would have to get their commentary from the right place.