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A Thought Question

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jake1001, Nov 25, 2020.

  1. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    I was reading up on the opinions regarding the 3 "visitors" who stopped by Abraham's tent.

    I am assuming (for the sake of argument) that the text of the Chumash is historically accurate -- there was a guy and he was visited by three visitors.

    Some commentators explain that the 3 visitors were angels. Others explain that they were not angels, but men.

    Only one of those two can be, ultimately, correct. If we were to go back in time and watch the event unfold, either men or angels who looked like men showed up. Right now, all we have is opinion because we weren't there but each opinion is trying to present a truth of the situation so only one can be correct.

    But if we learn a lesson from each of the options (like each angel can have only 1 mission or that we should recognize a blessing even in the words of mortal men and be thankful for it) then only one of those lessons can be sourced in the actual event. So learning one of them would be in error (if they were men, then we can't learn about angelic missions and if they were angels then we can't learn about human blessings).

    Does this devalue any of the lessons we learn?

    I wonder if there are other examples -- I suspect that there are but off the top of my head, I can't think of one.

    #1
     
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  2. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    My theory is there is no such think as an angel. Everyone agree ?
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I am not specifically a believer in angels (?), but their existence is an open question depending on what angels are, because at present we do not know.
     
  4. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    In Christianity, it is commonly believed that they were the Holy Trinity appearing in a theophany, but views vary. St. Augustine believed it was the Trinity, though.
     
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Maybe the point of the story is to bring attention to the fact that bad things happen in all or most cities. What city has no kidnappings and no rapes, no poor, no upper and lower classes? I notice Abraham lives away from cities. Lot's mistake is that he has chosen to live in a city, perhaps. That could be inferred. Genesis overall is very negative about city life. Any time a city appears in Genesis, bad things happen. What good thing in Genesis ever happens in a city? Good people live in the fields, herding. People who move to the cities become corrupt. Cain builds the first city, so the first city is built by the first murderer. That seems like a hint about the Sodom story.

    The angels may not be relevant, because the story could make all of its points without them.
     
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  6. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    Ebenezer had three visitors.
     
  7. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Good, Shuny, we agree. What evidence do you have of angels ?
     
  8. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Hi Frank, we agree, they were not angels, they were the Trinity. How have you been, buddy ?
     
  9. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    We agree, Ebenezer, the visitors were men not angels, agreed ?
     
  10. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Hi Brick, it looks like we agree. Angels were irrelevant. You are good people.
     
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  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The story of the tower called Babel? Its kind of similar but instead of destroying the city they scramble the language.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The three men were 'messengers' sent to Abraham to announce the birth of his son, Isaac.....so it stands to reason that they were angels in materialized form. One spoke as Jehovah's representative....the other two, after they had visited with Abraham and Sarah and partaken of their hospitality, went on to Sodom to escort Abraham's nephew Lot out of the city with his family before God destroyed it. They took the family by the hand and became urgent with them because they were delaying.

    When these "men" came into Lots house, the depraved inhabitants of the city wanted to gang rape his visitors, but Lot, knowing that these were God's representatives, offered his daughters to the mob to protect God's angelic servants. The angels struck them blind....so these were no ordinary men. The cities were razed to the ground in a massive explosion of God's power, not something men could do at that time.

    Nothing of the story fits mortal humans.

    What is the lesson? God forbade his people to communicate with spirits because the devil had influenced a great many of the angels to join him in rebellion. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) It was these wicked spirits behind many of the spiritistic practices of false worship, that God warned his people not to adopt. They did not listen.

    Do you mean angelic visits? Just off the top of my head, Gabriel appeared to Daniel and 500 years later to Mary. Angels were at Jesus' empty tomb and again they appeared at the time of his ascension to strengthen the apostles as Jesus was leaving them to prepare a place for them in heaven. An angel also presented the revelation to John.
     
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  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe one was God since when 2 of them left one remained and it says Abraham was there standing before the LORD.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Reinforcing the anthropomorphic Tritheism (polytheism) in Christianity.
     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Evidence? Anecdotal and personal at best. What some call angels I consider souls in service to God, but this is a religious belief as I believe in God
     
  16. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    Dickens wasn't meant to be taken literally.
     
  17. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Exactly, Josh, where are you on the fundy scale ?
     
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    In the same story:
    Genesis 19:15,16
    And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city…
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Look, I'm no scholar. You are probably better off reading the various Jewish experts on the text, even though they disagree. But since this is a forum where all of us insert our two cents worth, here goes.

    The word for angels in Hebrew is malakhim. It actually means messengers. If sometimes thought to myself that if a human being were a messenger of God, he would still be a Malakh, even if he weren't a heavenly being. IOW we might call him an angel, simply because he is God's messenger.

    But that's just me thinking late at night in the quiet darkness when I can hear myself think.
     
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