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A Theoretical Analysis Of Islam

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Nohwey, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    oh, you think they're meek. humbleness makes you humble not meek. you may just seem so, but no problem really.
    spending all your time on god, gives you spirituality.
    but what is it about that conquiring other?
     
  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    And I disagree with your assessment. The religions of Abraham were extremely barbaric.

    I might add that just because Abrahamic religions, and scribes, etc., called the Pagans barbaric, or backward, doesn't necessarily mean they were.




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  3. thau

    thau Well-Known Member

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    Me: So have all non-religions "taken their turn" as you would have it.

    ING - No they haven't. Nor is such pertinent to the postI replied to. Most groups struggled for resources, etc., in the ancient past.However, with a few exceptions, only the religions of Abraham killed other people for not believing in a God, or believing in other Gods.

    Well for starters, can we agree on one rule? You do not attribute the acts of Islam with Christianity or Judaism (simply because we are all Abrahmic religions) and I will not attribute the brutal murders of Mao or Stalin or Hitler with all those who do not believe in our G-d? Talkabout ridiculously expansive “profiling.” Yes, some may argue that some New World conquistadors or other specific“soldiers of the King”may have killed some indigenous types in centuries pastfor not becoming a Christian but I submit those are isolated events and I doubt ever endorsed by Rome or even local clerics. So to suggest that was a Christian way of conversion or proselityzing isextremely unfair in light of 2000 years of historical evidence which say so otherwise. The Inquisition I wouldgladly argue against popular (if not excitable) understanding of the truth andfacts. Witch burnings, again, was by and large not related to the pope or Vatican or Church teachings. It was by and large done by hysterical local villagers for their own insidious reasons or designs. The Catholic and Protestant attacks on eachother during the 16th and 17th century is once again, not what everyone thinks. Even the 30 years war was not Protestants vs. Catholics, they were on both sides. And Rome did not endorse or encourage any of this violence.


    Me: Which to me is a valueless comment. Unless you are suggesting that so long as we can find scoundrels and sinners within any religion then we can conclude that religionis to be avoided and contains no eternal truths?

    ING - Did I say that? NO! However, I do not believe ANY religion has truth of Deity, to the exclusion of all others. I also think wewould be better off being Spiritual, rather then "religious" which separates.

    No, you did not say that. I suggested it. What was yourpoint for bringing this up?

    As to your comment about this nebulous and lazy condition called being “spiritual,” it rings very hollow with me. It garners little if any virtue, imo.


    Me: Which leaves us where?... animals looking for a good time until we expire?

    ING - Animas were looking for a good time beforereligion, during religion, and will still be long after religion.

    I reject your term “religion” as I already alluded to. It gives you comfort to lump us all together,I get that, but it is highly disingenuous. Christianity by and large has subdued unbridled passions and placed agreat deal of responsibility to be charitable, obedient and forgiving.


    Me: My opinion: Judaism and Christianity have done far moregoodness and kindness to a pagan and often barbaric world than whatever crimesand misdemeanors many of their patrons have done over these many centuries. And the more man has progressed and become more civilized, all the more that is born out. Perhaps it takes a seriously unbiased person to undertake that study and come to such a conclusion? But amongst "intellects" that is arare quality, imo.

    And I disagree with your assessment. The religions of Abraham were extremely barbaric. I might add that just because Abrahamic religions, and scribes, etc., called the Pagans barbaric, or backward, doesn't necessarily mean they were.

    What I was referring to was the times of the dark ages and middle ages were barbaric compared to the advancement of civilization in Europe– with great thanks to Catholic teaching and efforts --- indubitably. Regimes, kingdoms, serfdoms, local authorities and bands of those taking justice upon themselves were all far more barbaric in their judgments and their punishments back then. Not just some church matters or church folkswhich the pagan world of today revels to point out and embellish.
     
  4. Moishe3rd

    Moishe3rd Yehudi

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    A little to much to deal with all at once so, I shall only address the above.

    Just as Islamism is currently decimating the Muslim/ Arab world, so did the "Christian Reformation" decimate Christian Europe and beyond. Northern Europe was essentially depopulated and thousands of cities and towns were destroyed.
    Including all of the religious wars fought between Christians from around 1550 to around 1750, about 30 million Christian Europeans were slaughtered which would have been 1/3 of the European population.

    More to the point however, is that Christianity from the Christian Roman Empire of the 300's to the European Christianity of the 1800's, was absolutely despicable and barbarous towards Jews and Judaism. Jews were tortured; forced to convert; expelled; robbed; kidnapped; murdered; enslaved; and thoroughly condemned by Christianity for the last 2,000 years.
    From a Jewish point of view, Christian Europeans, up until the mid 20th Century, were monsters who thrived on Jewish persecution and degradation.
    Jesus was quite justifiably considered an evil and perverted heretic by all believing Jews for the last 2,000 years.
    Not good.
     
  5. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    1. LOL! Dude! I suggest you reread the OP! I was commenting to that post which mentions ALL THREE OF THOSE RELIGIONS OF ABRAHAM!


    2. These are not isolated events. That is Absolute Bull, and an attempt to soften church history. Priests went with those conquistadors! Nor did This crap stop 1000 years ago, nor 500, not even 5 years ago. My Great Grandfather, and other native children, were forcibly taken from their families and forced into Christian boarding schools, where they were beaten for using their own language, or practicing their own religion, or even using their real name. They were given "Christian" names. Forced indoctrination through segregation and torture. Clergy in Africa, right now, are teaching that witches exist - and should be killed - resulting in torture-burnings of people.


    3. And last - What is up with you people that think you need to use giant print?

    Keep it normal size so people will actually read your post. It is ridiculous to have to scroll on a short post. I think the board monitors need to step in and make people stop doing that!


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  6. Nohwey

    Nohwey Member

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    "Whenever a man lies he murders a part of the world, you should know that." Nicol Williamson as Merlin. (Excalibur).

    If you say that with a straight face after knowing what God is, then you are a false prophet.
     
  7. thau

    thau Well-Known Member

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    This is demagoguery, basically. I like how you relate what took place in more barbaric times of the early centuries to what is now taking place in far more civilized 20th and 21st centuries.

    I will grant you that Christianity sinned greatly intheir treatment of the Jews, a total and grave matter. But Jews represented something unique to a Christian perspective where it was interpreted they were the enemy of the Christian faith which is horribly misplaced. Many theologians and even Pople John Paul II admitted and apologized for these travesties. Yes, I believe it was an abuse as great as the demonic abuses of a minority of clergy with minors. It cannot be glossed over. FYI, the Inquistion did not go after Jews, itwent after conversos, those Jews who claimed to be Christians for the sake of hiding behind it and in many cases causing turmoil within the faith itself. The Inquisition tried so-called Christians who were heretics, not those outside the faith.

    But to suggest that Christianity was some malevolent force that was a scourge on civilization is a total injustice. What Christianity did for Europe and the greater world, when measuring virtue vs. detriment, there is no comparison. Christianity civilzed cultures and nations and brought charity and education and goodness to a self-centered and avaricious mindset.

    I cannot take the time to address your other claims,such as this (dubious) 30 million dead number. Nor do I grant you that it was a Catholic Church movement behind any of that. By and large, these wars were fiefdoms and local princes waging wars against their neighbors. The fact they may have used religious claims as some justification was much more a tactic than a reason. The 30 Years War which was allegedly a Protestant vs. Catholic war was far more complicated than that description. As already noted, there were both religions on both sides of these battles.

    I am not saying these were regrettable developments,but I saying it is not as one would wish were the case. And the fact these took place in more barbaric times of the 16th and 17th centuries when all forces were brutal towards their adversaries, it is unfair to make it appear as though it were only those of faith who acted in such a way back then.


    Addendum: An article that appeared in the Los Angeles Times four days ago supports most of my contentions and refutes yours. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-wilson-syria-iraq-thirty-years-war-20140817-story.html

    The (16th century) wars that followed thatact were as much about power and economics, however, as about religion… This provides a major contrast with the present (Islamic) conflicts, which have used religion as a primary motivator… A second striking contrast between the European wars of old and today's conflicts is the virtual absence in the 17th centuryof "holy war" arguments… Thewar was still religious in the sense that it was interpreted by clergy of all hues as divine punishment for their congregation's sins. Instead of taking up arms against their neighbors, parishioners were urged to fight their inner demons, reforming their behavior to correspond to official ideals of piety and obedience.
     
    #27 thau, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  8. thau

    thau Well-Known Member

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    1. LOL! Dude! I suggest you reread the OP!I was commenting to that post which mentions ALL THREE OF THOSE RELIGIONS OFABRAHAM!

    So? It is your answer, not the OP, which I am objecting to. Take ownership.


    2. These are not isolated events. That is Absolute Bull, and an attempt to soften church history. Priests went with those conquistadors! Nor did This crapstop 1000 years ago, nor 500, not even 5 years ago. My Great Grandfather, and other native children, were forcibly taken from their families and forced into Christian boarding schools, where they were beaten for using their own language, or practicing their own religion, or even using their real name. They were given "Christian" names. Forced indoctrination through segregation and torture. Clergy in Africa, right now, are teaching that witches exist - and should be killed - resulting in torture-burnings of people.

    You are sadly misguided, imo. You look for the sins and ignore many truths. You embellish and misrepresent. I do not have the time to sort it all out for you either. AsThomas More once said “Tis a shorter thing and sooner done to write heresies than to answer them.”

    So, yes, you do have some legitimate claims amidst all the distortions and B.S. You are totally unjust in your assessments. I and the Church have admitted to many sins, but too bad for you that is enough to throw the baby out with the bath water. Because apparently you have the path of glory and truth we all should follow and nary shall any lie,sin or transgression come upon it. What planet are you on? Go read C.S. Lewis“The Screwtape Letters.” It does a masterful job of explaining how we all deceive ourselves into thinking we are so righteous and blameless and our ways are nothing but godly. Many Christians at least have enough humility to recognize our folly or errors and admit it. But the teachings of the Church remain despite its weak vessels witnessing for it.


    3. And last - What is up with you people that think you need to use giantprint?

    It is called being rushed orcareless. I will try to be more aware inthe future.
     
    #28 thau, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  9. Moishe3rd

    Moishe3rd Yehudi

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    I suspect that you believe that technological advancement and philosophical social experimentation is "civilized."
    The accepted definition of civilized would be more advanced social; cultural and moral achievements. Another would be a polite or courteous society.
    In ether definition, the mass murders and extirpations of the 20th and 21st Centuries would not generally be defined as "more civilized."

    FYI - the Christian persecutions of conversos was also demonic.
    And, I didn't mention that particular horror, you did.
    As you noted, Jews were indeed unique in that it was Christian doctrine that Jews killed their god and were therefore cursed as a race of deicides.
    My response was not, indeed, to castigate modern believing Christians. My response was to your claim that, overall, Christianity was a force for good for the last 2,000 years.
    My response was, simply, NO - not for Jews.
    For Jews, it was a ruthless and demonic horror that was brutally visited on them by Christians all over planet Earth for most of the history of Christianity.

    You are correct.
    Except for Jews... and a few other persecuted sects that no longer exist because they were totally wiped out, such as the Pelagians or Albigensians.

    I am not sure why you, or the author above, believe that power and economics are divorced from religion.
    The entire history of the rise and supremacy of the Christian church in all of its various forms was about power and economics.
    There is not enough room or time to educate you on that fact. I would suggest you do more research.

    The prime Catholic power of Europe France, under Cardinal Richelieu, hired Protestant mercenaries to fight against the other prime Catholic power of Europe, the Hapsburgs.
    "Bloody Mary," Mary I of England, was called that due to her relentless executions of Protestants.
    Elizabeth I carried on these religious executions against Catholics.
    The deaths from Catholic Spain's attempted invasion of Protestant England were over 25,000.
    Cromwell's campaigns against Scotland and Ireland accounted for a few hundred thousand more deaths.
    Wars between Orthodox Russia and Polish/Lithuanian Catholics ate a few more hundred thousand deaths...
    From Ireland to Moscow and from Norway to Italy, Europe consumed itself in wars of religion for about 300 years, killing each other over whose Flavor of Christian god was the best.
    The Thirty Years War alone ate about 8 million Europeans and - that number is as high as it is due to the fact that the majority of those casualties were civilians which, because of the vast devastation, were counted as casualties. This was not an ordinary historical practice.
    And yes, ALL of these Christian wars were about power and economics.

    What you fail to realize in your comparisons is that today's Great Arab/ Muslim Sectarian Civil War (similar to the Great Christian European Sectarian Civil War called the "Reformation") is also all about power and economics.
    The recent million casualties in the Iran - Iraq war was fought by a secular Saddam Hussein and a newly invented heretic Shia cult, Vilayat al Fiqh, of Iran.
    Every tinpot demagogue dictator from the Saudi Kingdom to the Hashemite Kings to Nasser to Qadafy to the Assads to Arafat the Rotting to Osama Who Sleeps with the Fishes to the despots of Hamas to al Sissi of Egypt to the Looney Tunes of ISIS were and are ALL striving for domination of power and economics.

    It is your comparisons devoid of history to which I object.
    The Great Jewish Sectarian Civil War (The Wars of the Jews) of 2,000 plus years ago decimated and obliterated the Kingdom of Israel.
    The Great European Christian Sectarian Civil War decimated all of Europe and was fought all over planet Earth.
    This current Great Muslim/ Arab Sectarian Civil War will ultimately kill billions and leave portions of the planet uninhabitable - unless they are stopped.
     
  10. thau

    thau Well-Known Member

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    >> I am not sure why you, or the author above, believethat power and economics are divorced from religion. <<


    I would be hard pressed to say it is divorced from the religious and their missions, but I still believe a most critical distinctioncan be made.

    All those wars you make note of in the earlier centuries were primarily a matter of power and economics. (even the Northern Ireland tragedy of the 20th century was social and economic prejudisms,imo) Forget the secular Saddam and those like him --- but the primary driver in these Middle East wars and terrorism acts is because the one side considers the other side to be infidels who must be destroyed. It is not about land or settlements or anything of the like when it comes to fundamental Islam&#8217;s antipathy towards Israel. It is not about power or economics in the case of ISIS either. They are spiritually driven to drive out demons, hardly an economic issue. I won&#8217;t bother with the (demonic) irony there.


    But you have said a lot and I would like to try and respond when time allows. Thanks.
     
    #30 thau, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You need to read replies in order, before you jump in with crap.


    My answer to the OP was absolutely legitimate.




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