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A Theoretical Analysis Of Islam

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Nohwey, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. Nohwey

    Nohwey Member

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    I like Muslims, but when they tend to turn towards Shiite or Sunni Islam, they are more susceptible to terrorism. . . Sufism is a very tiny denomination compared to the main branches of Islam, they know they should be approaching Islam in a more meditative mindset.

    The Fundamentalism of the Biblical religions, Judaism and Christianity, is less dangerous. Even in Judaism, which has the old harsh laws, there is no ancient style of Israel's government anymore. Nor will there ever be in the way in which it used to be. Gay people won't be executed for having sex with each other, at least not in a sane Israelie society, but the Fundamental, word for word Christianity is about how people are supposed to act right now, and in further generations.

    Islam occasionally has good laws about hospitality and even giving refuge to those running from their enemies, but because of the Fundamentalist stance of abbrogation of verses, the good tenants of Islam are always kicked out of the way by the hard core Muslims. People don't understand that if you want to be a "moderate Muslim" the only such thing exists in Sufism, and you are more likely to come across a Rainbow colored pansexual trillionaire Republican Jew than a Sufi with the number of Sufi practicioners that there are.

    People want to practice Islam and that's okay, but if you go into either Shiite or even Sunni, you're risking your society if you want to be a hardcore practicioner. I believe that Islam is exactly what the radical folk, the moderate folk, and their critics all say. I believe that Islam is not just a religion of Peace, but also a religion of pure Evil, and a religion that is neither and both. . .

    If I found out there was some alternate universe where Allah is God, I would certainly not be Sunni or Shi'ite. I would have to be Sufi. I am not Muslim, in fact, I don't like the religion. I like some Muslims, that I've met, but it is dishonest for many to say that Islam is entirely consumable by the West without poisoning. We can't force people to become Sufi if they are Muslim, but when they come over to the West through migration, we have the right to criticize Islam as a whole.

    People who live under Islam experience nightmares, literal nightmares, where they lose eyes, fingers, limbs and genitals, both for real crimes in which they are severely punished in the worst way imaginable whether or not they deserve it, and people experience horrific crimes and persecution just for the sake of Allah in some evil, bloody Jihad, regardless of the actual definition of the word. (Jihad).

    Islam needs to be allowed, but people have every right to speak against Islam, as it has brought evil to the West, under it's form of radicals. The fact is that no matter who you are, you must obey moral and ethical laws to remain ethical and moral. You cannot murder civilians, each other in the religious faith that's starting all this insanity, and torture whomever you want, and be called a peaceful religionist.

    The Muslims who do evil are evil, period. There is no excuse for people who guard Islam with the freedom of the West, which Islam hates so much, to deny anyone the right to speak out and criticize Islam. To call those who hate Islam racist is both vapid and probably unethical, because there are many who hate Islam for what it has done.

    Now, while I argue that Islam is responsible for it's own radicals, I can make room for hypothetical situations and the possibility that it isn't the source of it's own blood shed. Take heed, however, that even though most Muslims are just fine, most Muslims are in an evil religion that finds an easier time in corrupting it's practicioners into doing evil.

    So, in conclusion, look out for Islam, allow people to be who they are, both the critic and the follower of Islam.
     
  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    ALL of the Religions of Abraham have taken their turn at being evil murderers of those whom believe differently!



    *
     
  3. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    Peace be on you....Highly charged and loaded first post!....Thanks for liking Muslims....One would like if you also study Ahmadiyya Muslims too, a growing part of Islam, claiming as Promised-reformation-by-Allah-and-Prophet in latter days [1000 year era] @ Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Today they are having 66 the Annual Convention of US chapter is Harrisburg Pennsylvania, USA. www.ahmadiyya.us


    Plz do not be Judge.


    There is NO ABROGATION in Holy Quran. Think if it is abrogated why would it claim a perfect Book.....[plz learn in alislam.org through search box].


    Here we have problems, you just started the Post with, "I like Muslims....."...If all are fundamentalists, why would you like them..Hard to solve!.

    If Chritians keep killing each other in WORLD WARS 1 AND 2 and IRELAND, that does not lead to Christianity as evil, but decayed pratices of Muslims lead to Islam it self as evil.....Plz have JUSTICE. Same goes for atheists.


    Allah is the same God which appeared to all Holy Men, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad [and his Promised Messiah Mahdi].

    Allah is the God Who is rightfully worthy of worship, has no partner in any sense, has all pure attributes, has no weakness, He is source of blessings. Allah's name appeared differently in previous to Quran scriptures.


    True Islam is for all humanity to help meet God and to live peacefully with God's creature.


    You hate Islam but like Muslims and forget they are good because they truely understood and practice faith.

    Plz see what official reports says:

    "Pew Research Center Report on Muslim Americans

    Print
    Email
    Details
    Category: Publications
    Published on Saturday, 24 September 2011 06:54
    Read the August 2011 Pew Research Center Report entitled, "Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism" here.

    PREFACE

    Four years ago, the Pew Research Center conducted the first-ever nationwide survey of Muslim Americans. By and large, the 2007 survey showed, Muslims living in the United States were middle class and mainstream: largely assimilated, happy with their lives and moderate with respect to global issues, especially in comparison with minority Muslim publics surveyed in several European countries by the Pew Global Attitudes Project.

    Since then, however, Muslim Americans have faced a well-known series of challenges and controversies. A national debate erupted over the proposed construction of a mosque and Islamic center in lower Manhattan, and local controversies have surrounded mosque construction projects in at least three dozen other communities across the country. A shooting spree at Fort Hood, Texas, in November 2009 fueled rising concern about home-grown Islamic terrorists. The recession hit many groups very hard, Muslim Americans among them, and immigration has continued to be a divisive national issue, particularly amid a slow economic recovery.

    As the 10th anniversary of 9/11 approached, it seemed an appropriate time to survey Muslim Americans again and take stock of any important changes in the attitudes, opinions and experiences of this growing segment of U.S. society. The 2011 survey repeats many key questions from the 2007 poll. It also closely follows the methodology of the previous survey, including the use of random-digit-dialing to screen a large number of households (more than 41,000) to obtain a representative national sample of Muslims. As in 2007, interviews were conducted not only in English but also in Arabic, Urdu and Farsi, helping to ensure coverage of parts of the heavily immigrant Muslim American population that could be missed by an English-only survey.

    The study was overseen by the Pew Research Center’s president, Andrew Kohut, and the Pew Forum’s director, Luis Lugo. The Pew Research Center’s director of survey research, Scott Keeter, served as project director for the survey, with the close assistance of Gregory Smith, senior survey researcher at the Pew Forum, and Leah Christian, senior researcher at the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press. We were fortunate in this effort to have the continuing counsel of Amaney Jamal, an associate professor of politics at Princeton University and a specialist in the study of Muslim public opinion, who was also senior project adviser for the 2007 survey. We also are grateful to Courtney Kennedy, Chintan Turakhia and Dean Williams from the research firm of Abt SRBI Inc. for their advice and diligent work on methodological issues.

    Andrew Kohut, President, Pew Research Center
    Luis Lugo, Director, Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life


    Taken from: http://www.ahmadiyya.us/departments/publications/1274-pew-research-center-report-on-muslim-americans


    This has categories, those who find peaceful place for parctice their religion, they do not feel as you reported.

    Then there are places which are under influence of fanatic-clergy-cum-politicians-linked-with-certain-western-super-powers, surely they are one who are brutal and cruel. You could be intelligent enough to distinguish.....Shut down all arms-making factories in West and their supplies to world, you will see peace in Ukraine, Middle east and Afghanistan.....and you name it. [Which Islam is making problems in Ukraine-area [in air and occean too, two plane shot down], by the way!]



    Why? You think it is evil!......So you are confused.



    I just quoted the report, immigrants are peaceful Muslims. Before US and West embassies give visas to radical-fanatics-killer-mullahs, they should think twice. But many such fanatics has their children living in modern world.



    Agree.....It is true for all religions.



    Anyone who do evil, is evil and should be advised and taught and make civilized. No religion in its true sense asks for evil.[/QUOTE]



    Islam gives freedom with mannerism. It acknowledges the good people of previous religions.....Till now, have I called you racist single time, although from ur first sentence, I knew your typical sugar coated anti-Islam stance......so plz do not generalize.....Why will you not hate your religion what it has done in wars to its own people.

    CONTINUES
     
    #3 DawudTalut, Aug 17, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
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  4. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    CONTINUES
    You are wrong in argument. You are making typical mistake which many ppl make:
    Blaming any true religion because its followers are in state of decay with respect to practice. Plz check, other religions on this gauge. Turning cheek for second slap or following Moses' laws not eating pork, Buddhist killing Muslims in Burma...etc there are many examples of non-practice of followers. Do not attribute it to basic religion plz. Why you are not blamed in an evil religion according to you argument?



    One would prefer the true conclusion to look for Islam which is reforming itself [as Jesus (on whom be peace) came for reformation], as was foretold by God and His Messenger. It is working in the form of Ahmadiyya Islam under Khilafat. [alislam.org and mta.tv]
     
    #4 DawudTalut, Aug 17, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  5. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    I agree with much of what you say, DawudTalut, but the Ahmadiyya Muslim contingent is an insignificant Muslim sect that is largely derided by the majority of Muslims. They are sort of like the Jehovah's Wintness's of the umma.
     
  6. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    Thanks, so was once Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad himself (on all be peace)....Then hand of God takes the message to spread and it is happening with Ahmadiyya. Since beginning, rotten clergies joined hands with anti Muslims and went door to door to pass resolutions against foundr of Ahmadiyya. They did their best, sometimes called him British agent (as all Prophets were called agents ).. Thus so happens that sphere of God-backed version spreads against all possible odds.
     
  7. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    double post deleted
     
    #7 ametist, Aug 17, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  8. Nohwey

    Nohwey Member

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    I'll get to your comment later. It's 1:00 here and I have insomnia. I need to adress DawudTalut first.

    Dawud, you don't seem to understand what I'm really saying. I believe that Islam brings in people who are acceptable to the West. However, I'm Christian, I believe ALL religions without Christ as the only way to enter Heaven are in error and either knowingly or not, lying to their people on what God to follow, how to get to Heaven, etcetera. So, in a way, yes, I think Islam is evil, but I'm putting Sufism as the form of Islam which is most peaceful and in line with what moderate Muslims want.

    Say, if I were a Reformer of the Christian Churches hundreds of years ago, I would be trying to say, "If you want to do what God says and follow the Bible, do such and such", in other words, I think those who would be most obedient to the moral principles which I find in Islam would either have to become a part of Sufism, or just leave it altogether. Yes, I am saying Islam is the source of the evil that is found in the Islamic world, but I"m not saying that if Islam never existed, the world would be good, or that Muslims are the source of all the world's problems. Maybe if Islam is true, in a hypothetical situation, Sufism would be the best Islam there is. If you believe Muhammed or the guide of a Muslim is right, I am sure that you believe that Muhammed's alleged crimes of marrying and consummating the six year old Aisha at the age of nine was wrong.

    If he didn't do such a thing, one can at least allegedly still find this misdeed, which I have read about with my own eyes (a long time ago, mind you), in one of the Surah's of the Quran. If the Quran is meant to be taken at face value that Muhammed is the moral example for Muslims to live as, what did Muhammed do which suggest he atoned for his sin? Maybe he did something, but perhaps there is some kind of metaphorical reason the Quran says something like this?

    If it's some kind of metaphorical thing that doesn't make sense to a Westerner, there are many Islamic radicals and Imams that are saying that it says exactly what it means. Many young girls are being torn apart during intercourse for being too young to bare children in the Middle East. If this example of Aisha being married to a much older Muhammed is a metaphorical/mystical thing, then maybe Sufism is a better example of Islam to follow for people who actually want Muhammed to be the Paragon of virtue Muslims say he is.

    Also, keep in mind I'm trying to say that Islam has it's values, which I respect, even though I view Islam it'self as a corrupt source. If someone should enter into a Medieval village, and throw sewage in the well water, is it the well water's fault? No. I might change my mind later and claim Islam is all bad, but just please hear what I'm saying now, make your mind on what I'm saying not just by what I"m saying, but also how I"m saying it and the respect I"m showing.

    That's why your rebuttal about me cursing the entire religion of Islam as evil does not hold water. (Pardon the Pun). I'm saying that under the circumstances of being under the dictation of Imams and having to follow the available denominations that Islam possesses, that Islam will not be so much of a religion of peace so much as it is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

    Now, back to your example of people blaming entire religions for the misdeeds of their followers, I am including Christianity, in a way, with the same premise. For example, if all that is available in Christianity is people that tell us not to read the Bible, but to do what the Bible says, meaning, that we have to do what THEY say, that we have to do stupid things like pray to statues, go to a priest for forgiveness, do a rain dance around a Church building (Just joking), and say Geronimo while falling off Niagara Falls in a barrel, I am going to follow what the Bible says, because Biblical adherence to the Gospel and obedience to Jesus is real Christianity, not doing rain dances around Church buildings and jumping off Niagara Falls in a barrel.

    Likewise, many things I"m hearing of Islam are quite horrible, like, child molestation in London. (Not Godly. Not Godly in the Catholic Church but not Godly for Islam either). The current murder and terrorism from radical Islam that occurs in many parts of the world. (Not acceptable for Ireland either, but still not acceptable at all), the threats to rape nuns, the kidnapping of children, and other such atrocities, while committed in the name of Christianity, is wrong according to Christianity.

    So what I"m saying is that if all of those examples of diabolic behavior is against Islam, go ahead and make some example of Islam that is actually peaceful. I know some people in Islam do it. I'm just saying that the result of the belief of Islam as an evil force in the world has to do with the fact that as Edmon Burke put it, "The only thing it takes for Evil to triumph is for Good men to do nothing".

    Maybe there are more Muslims forming organizations and things like that that are beneficial to society, but what I said stands, Islam is not so much as hijacked so much as suffering a death of a thousand cuts. Muslims are murdering each other around the world as much or more as they are targeting others in the name of Allah. Please, for the sake of your own integrity, let people speak out against Islam so it's own people can explain themselves.

    Finally, and I'll go to bed since I can't sleep so much these days, I'm saying all of this as a polite way of explaining that despite Islams failings it has it's good points. I'm not saying that Muslims are all depraved monsters, so much as I'm saying that if it is successful in representing it's alleged beauties and positive side, it would probably have to do so in a way that is very fundamentally different than how it has ever handled it'self before. That is a challenge for any organization and would earn respect from the West if it could do it.

    :D

    Now, I hope that peace is upon you, in a literal, non-Prophet designating sense tonight, and that you can get some rest. Have a good day, and I hope that you have peace for real.
     
  9. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    LOL. i think these are all your humble opinions rather than being theological analysis of anything.
    sufism is not a branch of islam and exists in and out of islam perfectly as well. but since u are not interested in theology i wont get into those.
     
  10. Nohwey

    Nohwey Member

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    Damn you wikipedia! You lied to me!
     
  11. no-body

    no-body Well-Known Member

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    I'll agree with having a great liking for sufism. It's hard to be an extremist when you're a mystic.

    If sufism was the predominate point of view in Islam I would seriously consider becoming Muslim.
     
  12. Moishe3rd

    Moishe3rd Yehudi

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    As has been noted vis a vis Sufi Muslims, there are many, many different ideologies practiced in both the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam.
    I will leave it to Muslims to explain the different historical "Schools" which define different attitudes towards Islam however, I will attempt to educate you a teeny bit on the historical realities of Shia and Sunni Islam.

    The Shia/ Sunni split came about due to a disagreement as to who should rule or be the "divinely Chosen Caliph" of Islam.
    The Shi'a Ali (Partisans or Followers of Ali) lost the war and the Ahl as-Sunnah wa l-jamāʻah; Sunni (people of the tradition of Muhammad and the consensus of the Ummah) took the Caliphate and became the main branch of Islam.

    Shia followed a succession of imams; spiritual leaders, until the last imam "went into hiding" in the 9th century. He is expected to return at some point and redeem Islam. The Shia mainstream are known as "Twelvers" after this Twelfth Imam who went into "occlusion."
    There have been many Shia splits from the Twelver philosophy - who claim that their were additional imams or that their imam was, indeed, the Last Imam who was the "Mahdi" or Deliverer.
    Some of these Shia offshoots are (or were) the Ismailis; the Assassins; the Allawites; the Druze; Baha'i; Hezbollah; and, most recently, the Vilayat al Fiqh cult of Iran, invented by the Ayatollah Khomeini.
    This last Shia Iranian cult is currently the most dangerous Islamist death cult that believes that they should be establishing a global totalitarian state by means of hirabah; illegal Islamic warfare and piracy.
    On the whole and left to themselves, Shia have traditionally been less imperialistic (yes, I am aware of the Fatimids, dear ones) than their Sunni counterparts.

    Traditionally, the Sunni Caliphate and beliefs have been similar to any empire building religion and culture - they changed with the times; had dynastic wars; were conquered and adopted by non Arabs; and energies were mainly spent on creating a stable empire of Laws and Customs according to Islam.
    Radical Islamist preachers in the Sunni Empires did not usually get a chance to form a new sect as they did in Shia Islam. They were normally imprisoned; disavowed; and/or killed.
    That is, until the rise of Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab in the 18th Century and his alliance and intermarriage with the tribe of al Saud.
    The Saudi/ Wahhabi tribe conquered the Arabian Peninsula in the 1800's, forcibly converting; killing; or driving out, all those that did not accept the fanatical Islamist doctrine of Wahhabism.
    After they sacked and looted Mecca, claiming it for their own, the Egyptian ruler and the Ottomans put together an army that crushed the Saudi/ Wahhabist heresy by 1818.
    However, it regrew and once more conquered the Arabian Peninsula until it once more failed due to factional infighting.
    By 1902, the ruling head of the House of Saud once more began their campaign of conquest.
    This time, with the demise of the Ottoman Empire and the acquiescence of the British Empire, they established the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, once more killing; converting; or driving out those that would not accept this Sunni Wahhabism and once more sacking, looting, and capturing Mecca as their own.
    Although the majority of the House of Saud has proved to be too corrupt for the fanatical doctrines of Wahhabism, Wahabbi Islam has replaced normative Sunni Islam to the point that most people consider today's Wahhabist Islam to BE Sunni Islam.
    And, although the Saudis now have to defend themselves from the Islamist fanatics they themselves have spawned, All of the current death cults: the Muslim Brotherhood; the Taliban; al Qaeda; Hamas; ISIS; Pakistan's ISI; Boko Haram; al-Jabhah al-Islamiyah al-Qawmiyah of Sudan; etc., etc., ad nauseum, are all mongrel children of Saudi Wahhabism.

    The point to all this?
    Islamism is a modern death cult disease.
    Islam and the Muslim empires and traditions of the past are no different from any other religion or culture.

    However, the only solution for today's problems would be for the vast majority of Muslims who do NOT believe in these various Islamist death cults to take up arms and be willing to fight and die against the mufsidun Muslims who have hijacked their religion. They would have to be willing to fight for Freedom and G-d's Just Laws against those who believe in a god of Death and Cruelty.
     
    #12 Moishe3rd, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  13. Draupadi

    Draupadi Active Member

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    @OP- Sufism is not the liberal movement within Islam. Research on Quranism. And don't forget the nice Muslims out there who are Sunni or Shi'ite. Our RF have some :).
     
  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    It is a wrong advice to Muslims.

    It is true that some extremists have politically hijacked Islam in some countries; but the majority of Muslims don't support them. Media only highlights the killings; peace efforts and peaceful events don't make news.

    Reformation movement in Islam with Ahmadiyya peaceful Jamaat has started and spread to ,as of 2013 204 countries and territories of the world with concentrations in South Asia, West Africa, East Africa and Indonesia (Wikipedia); through peaceful means.

    Regards
     
  15. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    They will never be dominant part of any religion. Not everyone is brave for hidden or can endure for it and they have no ambition in numbers any more than the tolerance Love has towards them.
     
    #15 ametist, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  16. Moishe3rd

    Moishe3rd Yehudi

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    How nice.
    I don't suppose that you have any example, anywhere in the world, of any country or culture triumphing over an aggressive, armed, imperialistic, fanatical group for whom no form of repression or death is forbidden, by "peaceful means?"
     
  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Your ill-advice to Muslims was "They would have to be willing to fight for Freedom and G-d's Just Laws against those who believe in a god of Death and Cruelty."; those who will fight; who would disarm them again.

    The same objective could be achieved with peaceful means.

    Regards
     
  18. Moishe3rd

    Moishe3rd Yehudi

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    Repeating yourself is not an answer.
    There is No example in human history what you are proposing has ever succeeded.
     
  19. no-body

    no-body Well-Known Member

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    Yes, unfortunately the meek and the humble will be wiped out not inherit the earth. Spending all your time on God will lead to failure, the stories of people gaining the strength of God to conquer others are a fantasy made by extremists. In real spirituality you must surrender and be prepared to die.
     
  20. thau

    thau Well-Known Member

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    So have all non-religions "taken their turn" as you would have it.

    Which to me is a valueless comment. Unless you are suggesting that so long as we can find scoundrels and sinners within any religion then we can conclude that religion is to be avoided and contains no eternal truths?

    Which leaves us where?... animals looking for a good time until we expire?

    My opinion: Judaism and Christianity have done far more goodness and kindness to a pagan and often barbaric world than whatever crimes and misdemeanors many of their patrons have done over these many centuries. And the more man has progressed and become more civilized, all the more that is born out. Perhaps it takes a seriously unbiased person to undertake that study and come to such a conclusion? But amongst "intellects" that is a rare quality, imo.
     
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