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A Tanakh contradiction?

calm

Active Member
God commanded the Israelites, after he had delivered them from Egypt, to offer animal sacrifices (Leviticus Chapters 4 and 5). These animal sacrifices were used to wash oneself from sin.
This law was abolished by Jesus by sacrificing himself. Thus, no one has to sacrifice animals anymore to be saved, but only believe in Jesus.

Later, however, God reported through the prophets that he had never asked for animal sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7:21-22 KJV
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:


Psalms 51:16-17 KJV
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 66:3 KJV
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Micah 6:6-8 KJV
Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
_____


How do you explain this contradiction? Did God never mean the animal sacrifices literally, but rather spiritually, as Psalms 51:16-17 says?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
God commanded the Israelites, after he had delivered them from Egypt, to offer animal sacrifices (Leviticus Chapters 4 and 5). These animal sacrifices were used to wash oneself from sin.
This law was abolished by Jesus by sacrificing himself. Thus, no one has to sacrifice animals anymore to be saved, but only believe in Jesus.

Later, however, God reported through the prophets that he had never asked for animal sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7:21-22 KJV
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
First point -- there were MANY animal sacrifices commanded and only a small section have to do with sin.

On the day of the exodus, the commandment was that the people should listen to God's laws in general. Only later were laws of sacrifice (including the ones for sins) added, contingent on their following the obligation to listen to God. (ביום שהוצאתים ממצרים לא דברתי עמהם אז על דבר עולה וזבח ואם היה עיקר ההוצאה בעבור הבאת הקרבנות כי בזה הכל תלוי אף בזולת שמוע בקול ה׳ היה אם כן מהראוי להצטוות עליה ביום שהוצאתים ממצרים:)

Psalms 51:16-17 KJV
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Because most sins can't be atoned for by sacrifice, but only by proper repentance. For some, proper repentance and sacrifice work also, but without the right attitude, even these sacrifices are useless.
Isaiah 66:3 KJV
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Try a different translation
As for those who slaughter oxen and slay humans, Who sacrifice sheep and immolate dogs, Who present as oblation the blood of swine, Who offer incense and worship false gods— Just as they have chosen their ways And take pleasure in their abominations,
Micah 6:6-8 KJV
Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
_____

This section speaks of the broken laws between man and another man for which God does not want sacrifices, but wants people to act properly.
How do you explain this contradiction? Did God never mean the animal sacrifices literally, but rather spiritually, as Psalms 51:16-17 says?
No. Literally.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
God commanded the Israelites, after he had delivered them from Egypt, to offer animal sacrifices (Leviticus Chapters 4 and 5). These animal sacrifices were used to wash oneself from sin.
This law was abolished by Jesus by sacrificing himself. Thus, no one has to sacrifice animals anymore to be saved, but only believe in Jesus.

Later, however, God reported through the prophets that he had never asked for animal sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7:21-22 KJV
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:


Psalms 51:16-17 KJV
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 66:3 KJV
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Micah 6:6-8 KJV
Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
_____


How do you explain this contradiction? Did God never mean the animal sacrifices literally, but rather spiritually, as Psalms 51:16-17 says?
"Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,"
This is the key, final purpose of God was change of human consciousness." For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
So you still sacrifice animals?
Nope. We can only sacrifice in the place that God commands (the temple, currently destroyed) in a state of ritual purity which we cannot now attain. Fortunately, we have a back-up plan from Hoshea 14:3.
 

calm

Active Member
Nope. We can only sacrifice in the place that God commands (the temple, currently destroyed) in a state of ritual purity which we cannot now attain. Fortunately, we have a back-up plan from Hoshea 14:3.
Why can't you just build an altar and sacrifice animals there like Noah did? (Genesis 8:20)

And the temples of the Israelites in the Bible were also built by the Israelites themselves, or was it someone else?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Why can't you just build an altar and sacrifice animals there like Noah did? (Genesis 8:20)
There are laws that came after Noach that specify a place and a Temple to be used by the Israelites. Noahides may still make altars and sacrifices.

And the temples of the Israelites in the Bible were also built by the Israelites themselves, or was it someone else?
There was a Temple and that was the only place sacrifices could be made and as it no longer exists, prayer stands in for sacrifice, as it did during the period after the first Temple's destruction. It was built by the Hebrews.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Why can't you just build an altar and sacrifice animals there like Noah did? (Genesis 8:20)

And the temples of the Israelites in the Bible were also built by the Israelites themselves, or was it someone else?
Because of the commandment in Deut. 12:5-8. Once the site - the Temple Mount, and particularly, the site of the altar - was chosen, we can only offer sacrifices there.
 

calm

Active Member
There are laws that came after Noach that specify a place and a Temple to be used by the Israelites. Noahides may still make altars and sacrifices.
Okay, interesting.
Can you please show me Bible verses where it is written that this temple can't be rebuilt?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay, interesting.
Can you please show me Bible verses where it is written that this temple can't be rebuilt?
It doesn't say it can't be rebuilt. In case you are unaware, there is currently a huge Mosque at the site.
 

calm

Active Member
It doesn't say it can't be rebuilt.
You at least admit that it is not written anywhere.

In case you are unaware, there is currently a huge Mosque at the site.
Where in the Tanakh is it written that it must be exactly on this place?

And why did Solomon and his people once not sacrifice in this temple but somewhere else? (1 Kings 3:1-4)
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You at least admit that it is not written anywhere.
No one has claimed otherwise. There has even been an attempt to rebuild it before the Muslims came.

Where in the Tanakh is it written that it must be exactly on this place?
Deut. 12:5-8

And why did Solomon and his people once not sacrifice in this temple but somewhere else? (1 Kings 3:1-4)
1 Kings 3:2
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Why can't you just build an altar and sacrifice animals there like Noah did? (Genesis 8:20)

This was before the law requiring the temple/chosen location. Subsequent to that there were only a couple of exceptions, and none while we are impure.
And the temples of the Israelites in the Bible were also built by the Israelites themselves, or was it someone else?
Yes, they were (though the second was sanctioned by Daryavesh (Darius) if I recall correctly.)
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@calm,
Note: The reference from rosends might be easier for you to find by looking at Hosea 14:4.... if you're looking at a Christian bible, the verse is actually 14:4. @rosends is looking at Jewish sources... which has the verse as 14:3, but you will see it as 14:4... i think...

sorry for butting in.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Tumah,

Rambam's ruling on rebuilding the Temple? Hilchos Melachim chapter 11? Does he connect it back to written Torah?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@calm, @rosends

@calm,
Note: The reference from rosends might be easier for you to find by looking at Hosea 14:4.... if you're looking at a Christian bible, the verse is actually 14:4. @rosends is looking at Jewish sources... which has the verse as 14:3, but you will see it as 14:4... i think...

sorry for butting in.
Ack! I'm really sorry... it's actually 14:2 in the Christian bible... I'm embarrassed.

It's a famous verse because it says take words not bulls...

Take words with you And return to the LORD. Say to Him: “Forgive all guilt And accept what is good; Instead of bulls we will pay [The offering of] our lips.

The part in brackets is from commentary, but even without it, I think you can get the idea.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Which ruling are you referring to there?
How does Rambam know that the temple will be rebuilt? It seems like a Temple is required as part of the covenant... but I'm wondering if there's something more specific.

Edit: Ya know... virtually all the Law regarding the temple service and its instruments is written Torah proving that a Temple is required... right? So, it would be a lot more than just the covenant?
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
How does Rambam know that the temple will be rebuilt? It seems like a Temple is required as part of the covenant... but I'm wondering if there's something more specific.

Edit: Ya know... virtually all the Law regarding the temple service and its instruments is written Torah proving that a Temple is required... right? So, it would be a lot more than just the covenant?
Well, it says in Isaiah 2:2 that the Temple would be established in the End of Days which is usually understood as a reference to the Messianic Era. And like you said, with all those commandments about sacrifices, it seems like if we're in a situation where it's possible to rebuild the Temple, that we should do so.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well, it says in Isaiah 2:2 that the Temple would be established in the End of Days which is usually understood as a reference to the Messianic Era. And like you said, with all those commandments about sacrifices, it seems like if we're in a situation where it's possible to rebuild the Temple, that we should do so.
That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
 
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