a standing empty cross

[cataway]

If the rules against what I am breaking are man made then there is no reason for it to bother me even if it bothers you because you believe the Gov Bod has authority from God to make up rules for Christians it seems.
Which of the rules below, from the site, are not man made rules? Or iows, which of the rules do we find in the Bible?

• abortion[20]
• adultery
• anal or oral sex[21]
• apostasy[22]
• bestiality
• encouraging the celebration of birthdays or other prohibited celebrations[23]
• blood transfusions[24]
• boxing[25][26]
• "brazen conduct"[27] or "loose conduct",[28] including:
  • association with disfellowshipped non-relatives,[27]
  • "spiritual" association with disfellowshipped relatives[29]
  • criticizing a disfellowshipping decision[29]
  • child sexual abuse[27][30]
  • dating while "not legally or Scripturally free to marry"[27]
• cybersex or phone sex[31][32]
• drug abuse[33]
• drunkenness[34]
• extortion[35]
• fornication
• fraud[36]
• gambling[35]
• gluttony[37]
• greed[35]
• celebrating religious and national holidays[38][39][40]
• homosexual activity
• hypnotism[41]
• idolatry[42]
• incest
• interfaith activity[43]
• lying[44]
• manslaughter
• joining the military[45]
• murder
• physical uncleanness (extreme)[46]
• political activities[45]
• polygamy[47]
• hardcore pornography[48]
• refusal to provide for family[49]
• remarriage "if adultery and rejection by the innocent mate had not occurred"[50]
• slander[36]
• spiritism
• subversive, antigovernment activity[51]
• theft
• the use of tobacco[33][52][53]
• verbal abuse
• violence[54]
• voting in political elections[45]

its really sad if you are thinking any JW wants to associate with any one practicing the things you listed . if thats the kind of person you are and that would willfully practice such things you are one sick person . i am surprised and appalled that you feel any one would be acceptable to Jesus that willfully thinks such things are ok

 

[Brian2]

its really sad if you are thinking any JW wants to associate with any one practicing the things you listed . if thats the kind of person you are and that would willfully practice such things you are one sick person . i am surprised and appalled that you feel any one would be acceptable to Jesus that willfully thinks such things are ok

How about you just answer the question I asked so the discussion can proceed.

 

[Brian2]

We have much to say about him, and it is difficult to explain, because you have become dull in your hearing. For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong. - Paul (Hebrews 5:11-14)

That's a very cryptic answer to the post.

 

[nPeace]

That's a very cryptic answer to the post.

What? Seriously? You are in an even worst state than I though then.
You don't understand Paul's words there?
If you don't, only God can help you.

 

[Brian2]

What? Seriously? You are in an even worst state than I though then.
You don't understand Paul's words there?
If you don't, only God can help you.

Your post was cryptic for me in relation to my post. It was no answer to the post at all.

 

[nPeace]

Your post was cryptic for me in relation to my post. It was no answer to the post at all.

Christendom is so famished, it does not even give its wells water. We even have to end up spoon feeding.

Take a look at the text again Brian.
Religious Forums
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Try breaking it up in small manageable bits, that are easy to swallow. Some liquid might help, but that would wash it down quickly.
Our saliva does a good job of breaking down our food though. It just means we need to chew longer, but that's where we get the real benefits.

dull of hearing
Usually hearing is not always referring to what goes through our ears, but often is applied to our understanding.
For example, you might hear a parent say to a child, "You can't hear?" The parent does not think the child is deaf. She is really asking the child to listen with understanding.
Jesus used this also. He said, they have ears but they do not hear, and then he linked that to understanding.
So being dull in hearing means not understanding.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
So with understanding, one would be able to teach, but lacking understanding, one need to learn the basic elementary things.
They need to be fed milk, like a baby.
They cannot handle the meat yet.
In other words, they don't understand the basic principles in God's word.

I like the use of the word principles here. I'll get back to that later.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
The babe, is unskilled in the word of righteousness.
Think of a baby.
You have to tell a baby, "No No No. Don't touch that. No."
The baby does not know right from wrong. it now has to learn. It has to be guided every step of the way... less it pulls down the table cloth, and kills itself with the clay vase.

Thus, the spiritually immature can't distinguish between righ and wrong based on Bible principles.
They need someone to tell them "No. that is not right. Yes, you do that."
They can't make decisions for themselve in regard to righteousness.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
On the other hand, the spiritually mature one can handle the meat. That one understands how to apply Bible principles, and do not need a set of rules saying, No. This is wrong. Yes. This is okay."
The spiritually mature one can discern what is righteousness - what is right or wrong.


Let's see the link to your post.
Your post contains a long list, in which you say there are rules.
Let's pick one.
I'll choose viewing pornography.
Do we need a Bible text saying, "No No. Do not view pornography. it is wrong."?

This is where Bible principles come in, and the spiritually mature one knows how to apply Bible principles.
What principles does he use?

Spoiler: Bible Principles

(Ephesians 5:10-12)
10 Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and stop sharing in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness; rather, expose them for what they are. 12 For the things they do in secret are shameful even to mention.

(Ephesians 5:3-5)
3 Let sexual immorality and every sort of uncleanness or greediness not even be mentioned among you, just as is proper for holy people; 4 neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting - things that are not befitting - but rather the giving of thanks. 5 For you know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no sexually immoral person or unclean person or greedy person, which means being an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of the Christ and of God.

(Romans 1:24-32)
24 Therefore, God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, so that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them over to disgraceful sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error. 28 Just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting. 29 And they were filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, schemers of what is harmful, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, and merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God - that those practicing such things are deserving of death - they not only keep on doing them but also approve of those practicing them.

(Matthew 5:27-30)
27 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If, now, your right eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna. 30 Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. For it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to land in Gehenna.

There are many more scripture I could use, such as te ones that show what sexual conduct is disapproved by God, in the Bible, and why marriage was instituted, and between whom... etc.

Now when one takes these scriptures into considerations - not lusting at a woman ; not delighting in sexual immorality and every sort of uncleanness, nor shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, nor disgraceful sexual passion - such as occurs with woman on woman, or man on man, or woman on animal, or man on animal and vica versa, we have our powers of discernment or perceptive powers trained to distinguish right or wrong.

Laws are based on principles. A principle is a fundamental truth. So by considering principles, we are able to make decisions where there is no direct law stated.

Hence all of your list is covered by that one text in Hebrews.
Is it okay to have oral sex?
Was the male organ made for the mouth, or the vagina?
Was it made for the anus? Maybe if the ears and nostrils were big enough, it could go in them as well? That seems to be the mental thinking of the ungodly.

The one who is a babe, practices the things of a babe, for he is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, and he needs milk.

 

[Brian2]

Christendom is so famished, it does not even give its wells water. We even have to end up spoon feeding.

Take a look at the text again Brian.
Religious Forums
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Try breaking it up in small manageable bits, that are easy to swallow. Some liquid might help, but that would wash it down quickly.
Our saliva does a good job of breaking down our food though. It just means we need to chew longer, but that's where we get the real benefits.

dull of hearing
Usually hearing is not always referring to what goes through our ears, but often is applied to our understanding.
For example, you might hear a parent say to a child, "You can't hear?" The parent does not think the child is deaf. She is really asking the child to listen with understanding.
Jesus used this also. He said, they have ears but they do not hear, and then he linked that to understanding.
So being dull in hearing means not understanding.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
So with understanding, one would be able to teach, but lacking understanding, one need to learn the basic elementary things.
They need to be fed milk, like a baby.
They cannot handle the meat yet.
In other words, they don't understand the basic principles in God's word.

I like the use of the word principles here. I'll get back to that later.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
The babe, is unskilled in the word of righteousness.
Think of a baby.
You have to tell a baby, "No No No. Don't touch that. No."
The baby does not know right from wrong. it now has to learn. It has to be guided every step of the way... less it pulls down the table cloth, and kills itself with the clay vase.

Thus, the spiritually immature can't distinguish between righ and wrong based on Bible principles.
They need someone to tell them "No. that is not right. Yes, you do that."
They can't make decisions for themselve in regard to righteousness.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
On the other hand, the spiritually mature one can handle the meat. That one understands how to apply Bible principles, and do not need a set of rules saying, No. This is wrong. Yes. This is okay."
The spiritually mature one can discern what is righteousness - what is right or wrong.


Let's see the link to your post.
Your post contains a long list, in which you say there are rules.
Let's pick one.
I'll choose viewing pornography.
Do we need a Bible text saying, "No No. Do not view pornography. it is wrong."?

This is where Bible principles come in, and the spiritually mature one knows how to apply Bible principles.
What principles does he use?

Spoiler: Bible Principles

(Ephesians 5:10-12)
10 Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and stop sharing in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness; rather, expose them for what they are. 12 For the things they do in secret are shameful even to mention.

(Ephesians 5:3-5)
3 Let sexual immorality and every sort of uncleanness or greediness not even be mentioned among you, just as is proper for holy people; 4 neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting - things that are not befitting - but rather the giving of thanks. 5 For you know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no sexually immoral person or unclean person or greedy person, which means being an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of the Christ and of God.

(Romans 1:24-32)
24 Therefore, God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, so that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them over to disgraceful sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error. 28 Just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting. 29 And they were filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, schemers of what is harmful, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, and merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God - that those practicing such things are deserving of death - they not only keep on doing them but also approve of those practicing them.

(Matthew 5:27-30)
27 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If, now, your right eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna. 30 Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. For it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to land in Gehenna.

There are many more scripture I could use, such as te ones that show what sexual conduct is disapproved by God, in the Bible, and why marriage was instituted, and between whom... etc.

Now when one takes these scriptures into considerations - not lusting at a woman ; not delighting in sexual immorality and every sort of uncleanness, nor shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, nor disgraceful sexual passion - such as occurs with woman on woman, or man on man, or woman on animal, or man on animal and vica versa, we have our powers of discernment or perceptive powers trained to distinguish right or wrong.

Laws are based on principles. A principle is a fundamental truth. So by considering principles, we are able to make decisions where there is no direct law stated.

Hence all of your list is covered by that one text in Hebrews.
Is it okay to have oral sex?
Was the male organ made for the mouth, or the vagina?
Was it made for the anus? Maybe if the ears and nostrils were big enough, it could go in them as well? That seems to be the mental thinking of the ungodly.

The one who is a babe, practices the things of a babe, for he is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, and he needs milk.

Thanks for that. I do realise that the GB thinks it has good Biblical principles which it follows for it's decisions on what is serious sin and what is not. No doubt it is right in most cases, but in some it is not and just ends up educating a conscience to be in line with the members of the GB and making an innocent act into a serious sin. This is just as the Pharisees did in Jesus day with their rules.

 

[nPeace]

Thanks for that. I do realise that the GB thinks it has good Biblical principles which it follows for it's decisions on what is serious sin and what is not. No doubt it is right in most cases, but in some it is not and just ends up educating a conscience to be in line with the members of the GB and making an innocent act into a serious sin. This is just as the Pharisees did in Jesus day with their rules.

Please, Brian, You are all over the place.
Here is the definition of fickle...

adjective

1. changing frequently, especially as regards one's loyalties, interests, or affection.
   "Web patrons are a notoriously fickle lot, bouncing from one site to another on a whim"

Earlier you said JWs have man made rules which the GB enforces on us.
You mentioned something to me about attend meetings being a man made rule among other things, and your long list contains some things that make you look so bad, as a person professing to be a Christian and follower of Christ.
I mean, if any one is not shocked beyond imagination at the things you call man made rules, they clearly don't know anything about the Bible, as you are showing about yourself.

I am really inclined to feel sorry for you, since evidently, the church services you are attending, right now, or maybe in the past, would have to be a social club. Either that, or you attend, but simply to warm the bench, because I cannot imagine that you have not learned that the things you listed are actually Biblical rules.

For example, refusal to provide for family! You don't know that the Bible says that that is a requirement of a Christian family head?
You don't know that slander is condemned as un-Christian, and actually belongs to the works of the flesh, which is against the holy spirit?

No wonder cataway is appalled.
It's appalling, Brian. ...and disgustingly so at that.

Now you say this...
No doubt it is right in most cases, but in some it is not and just ends up educating a conscience to be in line with the members of the GB and making an innocent act into a serious sin.

It seems to me you are just trying to find fault, and make excuses as to why the GB cannot be the Lord's faithful and discrete slave.
Coming up empty you grab at anything possible in you desperation, and fail miserably to find anything.
Just like the Pharisees failed to find any fault with Jesus.

The only thing they were able to find was a thief who was willing to betray the Lord, and reveal his location to them, so they could jump for joy in finally being able to do away with the most dangerous threat to their corrupt religion.

Maybe you need to find a thief, Brian.
Oh wait. Is that why you search out apostates on websites to see if you can dig up any "dirt" on JWs. LOL.
Or maybe you are just one of those poor souls out there that fell victim to misguided propaganda, and you are just spreading what you apparently swallowed... not being familiar with the Bible at all. That's a very sad situation. I would not want that for my worst enemy.

So here's where we are, and what we can do... Since you have made accusations, none of which you have backed up thus far, but you are still insisting on erroneous assertions, let's settle this once and for all.
Since we are right in most cases, I suggest in all, please identify from your loooooooong list, which one of your so called man made rules, is not a "rule" based on Bible principles?

 

[Deeje]

So here's where we are, and what we can do... Since you have made accusations, none of which you have backed up thus far, but you are still insisting on erroneous assertions, let's settle this once and for all.
Since we are right in most cases, I suggest in all, please identify from your loooooooong list, which one of your so called man made rules, is not a "rule" based on Bible principles?

@Brian2 I would also like to know what you would include in your list. Nothing the GB does by way of discipline or counsel can be unscriptural.....otherwise we would reject it, based on the apostle's assessment of the ancient Beroeans.

Acts 17:10-11....
"Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas to Be·roeʹa. On arriving, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

We are to emulate these ones by taking the time to make sure that what we are taught is also the truth from God's word.....we accept nothing at face value and our brothers know that it is their responsibility before God to teach us the truth....the whole truth...and nothing but the truth.

 

[nPeace]

@Brian2 I would also like to know what you would include in your list. Nothing the GB does by way of discipline or counsel can be unscriptural.....otherwise we would reject it, based on the apostle's assessment of the ancient Beroeans.

Acts 17:10-11....
"Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas to Be·roeʹa. On arriving, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

We are to emulate these ones by taking the time to make sure that what we are taught is also the truth from God's word.....we accept nothing at face value and our brothers know that it is their responsibility before God to teach us the truth....the whole truth...and nothing but the truth.

Sort of like our day's text.
Paul had to discipline and give strong counsel, yet he said... (2 Corinthians 1:24) . . .Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

 

[Deeje]

Sort of like our day's text.
Paul had to discipline and give strong counsel, yet he said... (2 Corinthians 1:24) . . .Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

Hebrews 13:17...
“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”

In order to ‘be obedient and submissive’ to those who take the lead, you first need those ones to teach and guide you.....you can’t do that for yourself......it’s not a difficult concept, but you first have to trust those who are ‘taking the lead’, making sure that everything they teach and every bit of counsel or discipline they give is entirely in harmony with the scriptures.

We have developed that level of trust because they have given us no doctrine that came from themselves.....

It’s so easy to stand on the sidelines and make judgments with little factual information and lots of slander from opposers, but hey...isn’t that what Jesus warned us about? (John 15:18-21)

 

[nPeace]

Hebrews 13:17...
“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”

In order to ‘be obedient and submissive’ to those who take the lead, you first need those ones to teach and guide you.....you can’t do that for yourself......it’s not a difficult concept, but you first have to trust those who are ‘taking the lead’, making sure that everything they teach and every bit of counsel or discipline they give is entirely in harmony with the scriptures.

We have developed that level of trust because they have given us no doctrine that came from themselves.....

It’s so easy to stand on the sidelines and make judgments with little factual information and lots of slander from opposers, but hey...isn’t that what Jesus warned us about? (John 15:18-21)

That's right. Every time I read...
(Numbers 20:2-5) 2 Now there was no water for the assembly, and they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 The people were quarreling with Moses, saying: “If only we had died when our brothers died before Jehovah! 4 Why have you brought Jehovah’s congregation into this wilderness for us and our livestock to die here? 5 And why have you led us up out of Egypt to bring us into this evil place? It is no place for seed and figs and vines and pomegranates, and there is no water to drink.”

(Numbers 21:4, 5) 4 As they continued their journey from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea in order to go around the land of Edom, the people became weary of the journey. 5 And the people kept speaking against God and Moses, saying: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no food and no water, and we have come to hate this contemptible bread.”

I'm laughing my head off. Look at these people though. So unthankful. Poor Moses and Aaron.
Those Israelites who died off in the wilderness were a sorry lot.
Today, it is no different.
The cycle repeats.

 

[Brian2]

Please, Brian, You are all over the place.
Here is the definition of fickle...

adjective

1. changing frequently, especially as regards one's loyalties, interests, or affection.
   "Web patrons are a notoriously fickle lot, bouncing from one site to another on a whim"

Earlier you said JWs have man made rules which the GB enforces on us.
You mentioned something to me about attend meetings being a man made rule among other things, and your long list contains some things that make you look so bad, as a person professing to be a Christian and follower of Christ.
I mean, if any one is not shocked beyond imagination at the things you call man made rules, they clearly don't know anything about the Bible, as you are showing about yourself.

I am really inclined to feel sorry for you, since evidently, the church services you are attending, right now, or maybe in the past, would have to be a social club. Either that, or you attend, but simply to warm the bench, because I cannot imagine that you have not learned that the things you listed are actually Biblical rules.

For example, refusal to provide for family! You don't know that the Bible says that that is a requirement of a Christian family head?
You don't know that slander is condemned as un-Christian, and actually belongs to the works of the flesh, which is against the holy spirit?

No wonder cataway is appalled.
It's appalling, Brian. ...and disgustingly so at that.

Now you say this...
No doubt it is right in most cases, but in some it is not and just ends up educating a conscience to be in line with the members of the GB and making an innocent act into a serious sin.

It seems to me you are just trying to find fault, and make excuses as to why the GB cannot be the Lord's faithful and discrete slave.
Coming up empty you grab at anything possible in you desperation, and fail miserably to find anything.
Just like the Pharisees failed to find any fault with Jesus.

The only thing they were able to find was a thief who was willing to betray the Lord, and reveal his location to them, so they could jump for joy in finally being able to do away with the most dangerous threat to their corrupt religion.

Maybe you need to find a thief, Brian.
Oh wait. Is that why you search out apostates on websites to see if you can dig up any "dirt" on JWs. LOL.
Or maybe you are just one of those poor souls out there that fell victim to misguided propaganda, and you are just spreading what you apparently swallowed... not being familiar with the Bible at all. That's a very sad situation. I would not want that for my worst enemy.

It's good to see that you finally decided to end the joking and smoke screen and that serious sin you spoke about,,,,,,,,,,,,slander. If you have been following what was said it should be obvious that I was posting just a list of Watchtower rules that you have to follow to be a JW. And since being a JW is what someone has to be to be saved, those rules are just like the the rules that Paul was so hot under the collar about in Galatians and what was discussed in Acts 15. People were saying that Gentile Christians have to be circumcised and obey the law to be saved. The GB has a different set of rules, but the principle is the same, and as I was saying, since being a JW is imperative for salvation it seems, they are rules you must obey for salvation,,,,,,,,,,,or so it seems.

So here's where we are, and what we can do... Since you have made accusations, none of which you have backed up thus far, but you are still insisting on erroneous assertions, let's settle this once and for all.
Since we are right in most cases, I suggest in all, please identify from your loooooooong list, which one of your so called man made rules, is not a "rule" based on Bible principles?

It does not really matter if the WT can say they are Bible principles or not. They are a list that can push someone out of salvation and are necessary for salvation, ie to be a JW. My brother in law was told he had to stop smoking or he could not be baptised as a JW.
This sort of puts an end to the claim to not be a works based salvation gospel.

 

[Brian2]

@Brian2 I would also like to know what you would include in your list. Nothing the GB does by way of discipline or counsel can be unscriptural.....otherwise we would reject it, based on the apostle's assessment of the ancient Beroeans.

That made me laugh. I was just told that the WT is not a democracy and now you are almost saying it is.
I know you do not mean that it is a democracy, what you mean is that if you disagree with something you can say so. Then what? You can be taught the Biblical principles behind the decision. Then what? You can agree with the GB or not. If you agree, great, if you do not then you cannot make waves or you will be kicked out. It's a case of sucking it up or lose salvation for disagreeing with God's voice on earth I'm afraid.
But wait, it's not losing salvation, it's just being disciplined for strongly disagreeing with the GB and causing waves.
No good having waves,,,,,,,,,,,,,that would mean that the JWs would be seen to be not united and of one mind in all things. What a PR disaster.
It all adds up to "my way or the highway" it seems to me.
Come to the JWs and gain salvation by obeying a list of rules that we have made for you.

 

[Deeje]

It does not really matter if the WT can say they are Bible principles or not. They are a list that can push someone out of salvation and are necessary for salvation, ie to be a JW. My brother in law was told he had to stop smoking or he could not be baptised as a JW.
This sort of puts an end to the claim to not be a works based salvation gospel.

Brian2 are you really interested in answers or just jerking our chain for your own entertainment?

Smoking is a form of drug addiction that is a known cause of heart disease and cancer, not to mention emphysema and other lung conditions. It also harms others who breathe in their poison. No drug addict will be permitted to come into our brotherhood unless they clean up their habits. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

That made me laugh. I was just told that the WT is not a democracy and now you are almost saying it is.
I know you do not mean that it is a democracy, what you mean is that if you disagree with something you can say so. Then what? You can be taught the Biblical principles behind the decision. Then what? You can agree with the GB or not. If you agree, great, if you do not then you cannot make waves or you will be kicked out. It's a case of sucking it up or lose salvation for disagreeing with God's voice on earth I'm afraid.

You make me laugh because you just don't get it do you? Every rule we have is based on scripture, either as a direct command or as a Bible principle. Those who treat God's laws lightly or who want to make waves and disrupt the peace of our brotherhood will not be accepted either. (Luke 16:10) Love for God and neighbor means that we do our best to fulfill both of those requirements.

There is nothing that the GB requires of us that God hasn't already outlined in his word....that is why they have earned our trust and why we obey their direction. (Hebrews 13:17)

But wait, it's not losing salvation, it's just being disciplined for strongly disagreeing with the GB and causing waves.
No good having waves,,,,,,,,,,,,,that would mean that the JWs would be seen to be not united and of one mind in all things. What a PR disaster.

Well now I know that your responses are just trolling, so I won't bother responding to you any further. I am putting you on ignore because I can really do without the mindless rubbish you seem to enjoy posting.
Trolls are boorish time wasters.

Lets just leave the judging to Jesus shall we....?

 

[Brian2]

Brian2 are you really interested in answers or just jerking our chain for your own entertainment?

Smoking is a form of drug addiction that is a known cause of heart disease and cancer, not to mention emphysema and other lung conditions. It also harms others who breathe in their poison. No drug addict will be permitted to come into our brotherhood unless they clean up their habits. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

IMO that is seeing things in the wrong order. We repent and become a Christian first and then start on the road to clean up our habits. The change comes from God who works in us to change us into the image of Christ.
Squeaky clean Christians is seeing Christians in the wrong light. We are disciples of Jesus and fall often in our walk and confess our wrongs and He is faithful to cleans us.
Cleaning the inside is certainly more important than cleaning the outside. Which could bring us to the rule about being excessively dirty.
I have heard that cleanliness is next to godliness but I have not seen it in the Bible.
God sees the heart, man sees the outside.
Again it is a completely wrong view of what a Christian is,,,,,,,,,,,someone on a journey, not someone who has already finished the journey and is perfect already.

You make me laugh because you just don't get it do you? Every rule we have is based on scripture, either as a direct command or as a Bible principle. Those who treat God's laws lightly or who want to make waves and disrupt the peace of our brotherhood will not be accepted either. (Luke 16:10) Love for God and neighbor means that we do our best to fulfill both of those requirements.

There is nothing that the GB requires of us that God hasn't already outlined in his word....that is why they have earned our trust and why we obey their direction. (Hebrews 13:17)

It is Jesus to whom we answer and it is a good thing for Christians to encourage us to walk as they see that Jesus wants them to but those things,,,,,,,,,,,especially as described in a list of rules, should not be enforced with the threat of damnation by being kicked out of the only place of salvation.
There are certain things in the rules that are not outlined in the Bible. Birthdays, having respect for our Government and leaders and saluting the flag of the nation. Wearing a beard I don't think is in the list but I hear it is a thing frowned upon. Blood transfusions ban is nowhere in the Bible. etc.
I can pick out rules like that but it is really the whole concept of being acceptable first before you can be saved.
I could also say something about the disfellowshipping process and how it seems to be against the law of love in the Bible. If someone does not want to be a Christian we might treat them as we would other people but that does not mean to ignore them as if they were strangers.
But you get used to the rules when in an organisation and if you want to stay there you learn to obey. You trust that your group is what the GB tell you it is. The only true Christians. You trust men even when the Bible tells us differently about who is a Christian or not.

Well now I know that your responses are just trolling, so I won't bother responding to you any further. I am putting you on ignore because I can really do without the mindless rubbish you seem to enjoy posting.
Troll are boorish time wasters.

Lets just leave the judging to Jesus shall we....?

I try to judge the GB really even if it does sound as if I am judging you.
You are doing what JWs do when the heat is turned up,,,,,,,,,,run,,,,,,,,,and always with a reason that sounds great,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm a troll. As you said, let's just leave the judging to Jesus shall we...?

 

[nPeace]

It's good to see that you finally decided to end the joking and smoke screen and that serious sin you spoke about,,,,,,,,,,,,slander. If you have been following what was said it should be obvious that I was posting just a list of Watchtower rules that you have to follow to be a JW. And since being a JW is what someone has to be to be saved, those rules are just like the the rules that Paul was so hot under the collar about in Galatians and what was discussed in Acts 15. People were saying that Gentile Christians have to be circumcised and obey the law to be saved. The GB has a different set of rules, but the principle is the same, and as I was saying, since being a JW is imperative for salvation it seems, they are rules you must obey for salvation,,,,,,,,,,,or so it seems.



It does not really matter if the WT can say they are Bible principles or not. They are a list that can push someone out of salvation and are necessary for salvation, ie to be a JW. My brother in law was told he had to stop smoking or he could not be baptised as a JW.
This sort of puts an end to the claim to not be a works based salvation gospel.

Well Duh.
Your brother in law was probably looking to be a rice Christian. That's not Christianity.
To be a Christian, one must be baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit.
Perhaps you need to learn what that involves before talking about being a Christian.
Yes there are many kinds of Christian, but none of them are what was started on the day of Pentecost 33 CE.

Here's what Peter said, when the question was asked, “Men, brothers, what should we do?” i.e. What must we do to gain salvation?
Peter said to them: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. (Acts 2:38)

What does repent mean?
It means “change one’s mind with regard to past (or intended) action, or conduct, on account of regret or dissatisfaction,” or “feel regret, contrition, or compunction, for what one has done or omitted to do" Brian.
To turn around from what?
(Hebrews 6:1) . . .Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works and faith in God. . .
(Hebrews 9:14) . . .how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

We just talked about the babies. One cannot be baptized as a baby. The baby needs to learn and understand what is wrong and right - What is clean and unclean... from God's standpoint, Brian. Not the world. Not the human wisdom.
This is not a man made rule. It is there in the Bible.
Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
We need to be taught. Otherwise, how would we know what to repent from?

Recall the apostles were telling the people what they had learned from Jesus, before it reads...
(Acts 2:37) . . .Now when they heard this, they were stabbed to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: “Men, brothers, what should we do?”
That's in line with Romans 10
13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
17 So faith follows the thing heard. In turn, what is heard is through the word about Christ.

That's why I asked you about Romans 10:15. The good news must be carried by our feet. That makes them beautiful. That is, if we are able. We have many who are doing so, despite challenges,
Here is one blind brother leading one lame brother. What? The blind leading one that can see?
We also have ones older than 90, still using their feet. Over 100, and she is still using her feet to carry the good news. How beautiful?

We are not saying that one cannot talk to people when they go to the market, or while at work. We do all of that. It's called preaching informally, but our primary goal is to make disciples, as commanded by our Lord, and to go and do so. So we go. Our feet carry us to the territories where we find people, and preach and teach.
Do you do that Brian? It's a concerted effort.

It's one thing to stand by, and criticize people who are doing the lord's work, but what are you doing?
The Pharisees criticized Jesus. They said he was possessed. Why? Because his works proved that he was approved by God.
They on the other hand, their works were shown up to be disapproved, so they claimed Jesus was false.
That's all you are doing Brian.

Most people do not want to do this work Jesus assigned his followers. They want to be, of the world.
That's why persons choose worldly "Christianity", because it allows them to live like the world does - smoke. fornicate, watch their disgusting porn - they look no different to the world.
The only difference, is that they go in a religious building whichever Sunday they choose to go, giving an appearance of godliness, but proving false to its power, and from these we are told... turn away. (2 Timothy 3:5)

The scriptures say. . .
(1 Peter 4:1-6) 1 Since Christ suffered in the flesh, you too arm yourselves with the same mental disposition; because the person who has suffered in the flesh has desisted from sins, 2 so that he may live the remainder of his time in the flesh, no more for the desires of men, but for God’s will. 3 For the time that has passed by is sufficient for you to have done the will of the nations when you carried on in acts of brazen conduct, unbridled passions, overdrinking, wild parties, drinking bouts, and lawless idolatries. 4 They are puzzled that you do not continue running with them in the same decadent course of debauchery, so they speak abusively of you. 5 But these people will render an account to the one who is ready to judge those living and those dead. 6 In fact, this is why the good news was declared also to the dead, so that although they are judged in the flesh from the standpoint of men, they might live in harmony with the spirit from God’s standpoint.

So Brian, we have a choice. We can choose to continue (carry on) in dead works of the world, or we can choose to stop! Turn around, and walk in God's way - the way he requires.

JWs clearly are doing that, and your posts confirms that, as well as other things about where you are.
If you are interested in learning what these dead works are, we can help you with that.

 

[nPeace]

Smoking is a form of drug addiction that is a known cause of heart disease and cancer, not to mention emphysema and other lung conditions. It also harms others who breathe in their poison. No drug addict will be permitted to come into our brotherhood unless they clean up their habits. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

How could any Christian not know that?
I guess it depend on what kind of "Christian" one chooses to be. Wayward apostate, or true follower of Christ.
The former clearly think it's okay to be unclean.
Wait. Aren't Catholics allowed to smoke? Brian is Catholic, isn't he? No wonder he hates the GB. They expose the hypocrisy of the man of lawlessness, and where the throne of Satan is.

 

[Brian2]

How could any Christian not know that?
I guess it depend on what kind of "Christian" one chooses to be. Wayward apostate, or true follower of Christ.
The former clearly think it's okay to be unclean.
Wait. Aren't Catholics allowed to smoke? Brian is Catholic, isn't he? No wonder he hates the GB. They expose the hypocrisy of the man of lawlessness, and where the throne of Satan is.

No I'm not a Catholic but was brought up as a Catholic.
Yes all Christians know that smoking is not good for you and that we should stop. It is not a law of God however and it has been made into one by the GB. It is a cleansing of the outside of the vessel however and is not a sin that should stop someone from having eternal life. That is what my brother in law was essentially told, stop smoking or you will not have eternal life because you can't become a JW.
I could move on to transfusions. I don't know if it is a serious sin in the WT to eat blood in any other way, only transfusions are mentioned.
When I look at this in Acts 15 I see Jewish Christians, zealous for the law and wanting to made Gentile Christians obey the law for their salvation. This had to be dealt with in a way where the Gospel was not compromised and brought back to obeying law, but also in a way where the Jewish Christians could have fellowship with the Gentile Christians and not feel as if they were being made unclean to be near them. This was accomplished by basically saying that the Gentiles should follow the Noahide law, which it seems is what Gentiles did if they wanted to become Jewish converts.
This decision was made for the purpose of peace and fellowship in the Church at the time and it was not part of any law that Christians needed to follow in order to have salvation.
What does the GB do? It makes it into a law which you have to obey in order to have salvation (be in the WT) and extends it to the life saving blood transfusions, thus putting the lives of JWs at risk. Not even Jews refuse transfusions.
BUT can you see that the GB has lacked spiritual discernment and has turned the passage on it's head,,,,,,,,,,,,making a law out of something that was meant to stop the Legalistic Jewish Christians from making the law essential for salvation.

 

[Brian2]

We just talked about the babies. One cannot be baptized as a baby. The baby needs to learn and understand what is wrong and right - What is clean and unclean... from God's standpoint, Brian. Not the world. Not the human wisdom.
This is not a man made rule. It is there in the Bible.
Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
We need to be taught. Otherwise, how would we know what to repent from?

I see the Ethiopian being baptised on hearing the Gospel. I see the house of Cornelius being baptised on hearing the gospel. I see 3000 people at Pentecost being baptised in the Holy Spirit on hearing about Jesus and believing. These people repented but that does not mean that they knew everything the Lord would eventually want them to relinquish or that they had overcome completely their sins.
You are talking rubbish.
It is a life time's work for God to change us and with our cooperation, rid us of what we repented of. That does not happen before we are baptised even if it is good that new comers know what they are in for. They should consider what it will mean to be a disciple.
What you are saying is like a woman who spends the whole day cleaning her house because she does not want the cleaner to see it untidy.
What the GB makes new converts do is the rules of men and not those of God.

Do you do that Brian? It's a concerted effort.

No I don't do that. I don't go out and spend a certain number of hours preaching each week and have it recorded in church records. Maybe I should. You JWs are so fantastic in what you do,,,,,,,,,,,,what the GB forces you to do,,,,,,,,,,You must be the correct religion and all you doctrines must be right. We know the GB is right because it is the faithful servant and the doctrines and rules they set are not contrary to the Bible or you would disagree with them,,,,,,,,,,,,,as long as you do that for a short time only and don't disagree too strongly,,,,,,,,,,,that is ground for dismissal from eternal life in as a JW it seems.

But seriously I have already said that the work of preaching is a good thing and needs to be done and that the JWs have a zeal for it. There are no points to be gained from going on about it.

Most people do not want to do this work Jesus assigned his followers. They want to be, of the world.
That's why persons choose worldly "Christianity", because it allows them to live like the world does - smoke. fornicate, watch their disgusting porn - they look no different to the world.
The only difference, is that they go in a religious building whichever Sunday they choose to go, giving an appearance of godliness, but proving false to its power, and from these we are told... turn away. (2 Timothy 3:5)

You have been taught well by the hate literature you are fed.

So Brian, we have a choice. We can choose to continue (carry on) in dead works of the world, or we can choose to stop! Turn around, and walk in God's way - the way he requires.

Thanks for that but it is what I see in the Bible and what I am taught in Church.

JWs clearly are doing that, and your posts confirms that, as well as other things about where you are.
If you are interested in learning what these dead works are, we can help you with that.

I don't really need you to tell me that. But thanks. Actually I have seen some of these dead works in the list of rules. Celebrating birthdays and joining Government and growing a beard (probably not in the list) smoking, saluting the flag, having oral sex, disagreeing with the teachings of the GB,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,all the disgusting things that the WT wants to say disqualify you from eternal life,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because they say so and the have the power,,,,,,,,,,,according to them.