1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A source of fear...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vee, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Vee

    Vee Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +288
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    I’ve been reading a lot of threads where people talk about hell and what it means and I thought this deserves some research. Personally, I don’t believe in eternal punishment in a hell of fire and I find that belief to be an unnecessary source of fear.

    I read a lot of articles about the origin of the concept of hell and I selected a few to share, from different sources so you don't think I'm biased.

    They all say more or less the same thing: confusion and misunderstanding have been caused through the early translators of the Bible replacing the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell.

    The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost but the idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before these books were written.

    Hindus and Buddhists seem to regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment. The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the underworld as a place full of horrors, presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness. Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”

    Here are some links with the best articles I found in case anyone is interested. For those who don’t feel like reading, there is a very good youtube video by a pastor (can’t remember his religion):

    Religion and Spirituality: Hell: Origins of an Idea
    The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
    Merciful Truth : The Origin of Hell
    Hell - New World Encyclopedia
    There is no Hell in the Bible
    Hell | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis Barnacle Bill the Sailor
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    6,799
    Ratings:
    +1,598
    Religion:
    Cynicism
    Ok, so then what do you think happens to non-believers?
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    9,575
    Ratings:
    +5,808
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Gehenna is from the Hebrew "valley of [the son of] Hinom". Gei [ben] Hinom = Gehinom. Gehenna in Greek is just a transliteration.

    Gehenna - Wikipedia
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  4. Vee

    Vee Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +288
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    When they die? The same thing that happens to believers. Death is the same for everyone.
    In Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 6 the bible says that the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. Death is thus defined as a state of non existence.
     
  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis Barnacle Bill the Sailor
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    6,799
    Ratings:
    +1,598
    Religion:
    Cynicism
    In which case the benefit of believing or not believing has nothing to do with an afterlife?
     
  6. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,257
    Ratings:
    +427
    Religion:
    Islam
    Early Christians were told the following about Hell:

    20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.

    21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.

    23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.

    24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.

    25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

    26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

    27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.

    28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.

    29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.

    30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.

    31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.

    32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

    33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God

    The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by Roberts-Donaldson)

    Christianity of today is far removed from the Christianity of say 100 years ago. People knew they had to do works and worship God, praying at fixed times daily. Today it's mostly about the 'free' gift of salvation through belief alone.
     
  7. Rival

    Rival Noachide Fundamentalist Pro-Semite
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    7,074
    Ratings:
    +6,841
    Religion:
    Noahide
    Despite the fact that the Gospel of Petros was written anywhere from 150-200 c.e., at least 50 to 100 years after the latest canonical gospel, and discluded in the New Testament canon, we can safely say early Christians probably were not taught this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    3,188
    Ratings:
    +2,656
    Religion:
    None
    Yet it uses the same holy book now as it did then. You can decide for yourself based on that how much or little Christianity comes from its bible.
     
  9. Vee

    Vee Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +288
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    Now I know where Dante got his inspiration from. And to think that all this time I believed he had a lot of imagination...
     
  10. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,257
    Ratings:
    +427
    Religion:
    Islam
    I'm aware of a credit card sized fragment called p52 that is alleged to date to 125 C.E. though recent studies give nearer 200 C.E. as more probable. Outside of this, most of the NT Manuscripts date after 150-200 C.E. pretty much in keeping with the Gospel of Peter and there's no way of ruling out the possibility, that like the NT Gospels, this one too wasn't a copy of earlier manuscripts from the First Century.

    I'm sure Hell not really existing helps a lot of people sleep easier at night.
     
  11. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    3,188
    Ratings:
    +2,656
    Religion:
    None
    You might find the RF thread Why do you dislike Islam? interesting
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,878
    Ratings:
    +695
    Religion:
    Christian
    Ecclesiastes is talking about the flesh/human side of things, not the spiritual. They have no more share in what's done "under the sun", not in the spiritual realm.

    Ecclesiastes 9:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

    Jesus compared death with sleep, when you go to sleep do you cease to exist? Jesus was showing that death is just a different state of consciousness, just as sleep is, sleep is a state of consciousness. When you sleep at night, you feel no love, no hate, no jealousy, you know nothing until you wake up.
     
  13. Rival

    Rival Noachide Fundamentalist Pro-Semite
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    7,074
    Ratings:
    +6,841
    Religion:
    Noahide
    We have no original manuscripts and Mark has been dated to the 1st century c.e., as have Matthew and Luke. I trust those scholars over forum members. Luke, if his accounts are correct and he travelled with Paul, must have written his gospel in the first century as the writer of Acts and Luke are clearly the same person. Whilst the Peter Gospel was read in some churches, the fact that it wasn't included in the canon tells me that the majority of other churches had good reason not to recognise it.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,878
    Ratings:
    +695
    Religion:
    Christian
    If you really believed you were one of God's "true worshipers" and belong to His "real and only church" what would you have to fear if there is actually a hell, a place of eternal punishment?
     
  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    2,939
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    None
    Same as as every other living thing, they die, decompose and sometime later their atoms are reused.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    2,939
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    None
    The current Christian interpretation of hell derives from Dante and hieronymus bosch
     
  17. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,955
    Ratings:
    +2,471
    Religion:
    Secular gnostic monotheist
    There is a lot of variation in Christian interpretations. Hell is a lot less common belief here in Scandinavia, among Christians.
     
  18. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,955
    Ratings:
    +2,471
    Religion:
    Secular gnostic monotheist
    Probably true. Fear and it's accomplices tends to make people irrational.
     
  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    2,939
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    None
    The Bible is pretty light on hell with verses like Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
    And 2 Peter 2:4 "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into chains of darkness to be held for judgment
    ."

    What is threatened to frightened children now mostly came from the minds of middle age poets and artists.


    [​IMG]
     
  20. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,257
    Ratings:
    +427
    Religion:
    Islam
    Yes Scholars say the Gospels were written in the First Century, but as you say, there are no originals, therefore what you have can not in any way be proven to be the same as what was originally written in the First Century. Here's one of the leading experts in the field of Greek NT Manuscripts explaining it....

     
Loading...