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A simplistic evidence for purpose

siti

Well-Known Member
This thread reminded me of Charles Birch's book On Purpose - a bit dated (about 1990 or 1991 I think) but I remember he makes the point that perhaps "purpose" runs much deeper in reality than we imagine. But I don't see that it has to be all that mysterious - do corporations have a purpose? A collective purpose? And is the purpose of a corporation more/different than just the sum of the purposes of the individual humans who make up the corporation? Does an army of ants have purpose? A swarm of bees? A pod of dolphins? As far as we know, none of them intentionally set out to design hives, nests, wings or fins - and yet all of these "serve" the "purposes" of both the individual organisms and the collective groups admirably. Likewise the long slim legs and slender arms and fingers of homo sapiens - the emergence of these traits depended on two imperatives - reproduction and survival - the choice of a mate and where to find food. Purpose? Yes! Chemically-mediated purpose. Chemically-rewarded purpose - and what's in it for the chemicals? Why do hormones and pheromones drive organisms to pursue this or that objective? Sex or food, self-gratification or altruism? Purpose? How deep does it go? But its all part of the natural world - I think.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I think it is driven by natural processes. But if intention is true and life is purposed, how would we discover this natural force of agency. Is the natural force physical? Does it contain a vast memory? What preconceptions might it operate under? I see purpose and thus a unified guiding intention in lifes formation and conduct. Are we programmed responders to our environment? If so what is the language?

Purpose not in a subjective sense of created purpose. But a guiding principle that is natural but intended. The implication of purpose is intellect, and if there is any intellect in nature; not a literal mind force, but a created force of a mind or many minds unified. Is this force self learning and self corrective?

Purpose opens up a can of worms that hard realists dont like. And their instincts call it bizarre and delusional. Thus it is immediately dismissed. But is instinct a correct way to conclude reality as purely physical.

I mean many scientists think that parallel worlds could exist.

It would be interesting to see if life can be catalyzed to come into existence once again.

Reality drives conceptualization to extremes from every point of view.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Purpose opens up a can of worms that hard realists dont like. And their instincts call it bizarre and delusional. Thus it is immediately dismissed. But is instinct a correct way to conclude reality as purely physical.
You have hit the nail on the head here I reckon. The "hard realist" is confronted with this dilemma: in a world fundamentally devoid of purpose, how can I purpose-fully investigate the world? No experiment happens by accident so if we are purpose-fully designing experiments to find out how the world ticks, where does the purpose of the scientist come from? Does it emerge miraculously? Is it handed down somehow from some "supervening" level? Or is it built up from more fundamental levels as an inevitable consequence of the "mini-purposes" of the bits and pieces the scientist is made of? And if so, how deep does it go? Do cells have purpose? Molecules? Quarks?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why does the human body appear logically formed? For instance the legs and feet are made for walking. The arms and hands are made for carrying and grasping. The eyes are made to guide you around. The ears are for you to hear dangers, and to listen. The mouth is made for expression and intake of food. And all of these things exist to move you around and explore. The will guides actions. The mind and heart take in experiences to inform the will.

I accept evolution. But i see crude purpose in the way the body is constructed.

I suppose you are going to say, it is mindless incident with no intention behind it. It just appears that way.

But it is obvious to me the body has intention in its makings and that assessment is wrong.

I dont believe in god, or gods. So no rants about that. But i do see purpose in the human body.

There really shouldnt be any logical function of the body whatsoever with mindless incident.

There is no law that something has to survive and thrive or come together with any convenience whatsoever.

People love to imply the body is an accident of nature. People also love to imply that the laws of nature make life that functions inevitable without mind or intention behind it. And then they go into technical facts trying to imply that nature has no intention in it.

What appears to be is actually true. There is purposes and intentions to the human body. It cannot be explained away.
Not purpose, function. The evolutionary process preserves functional adaptations and weeds out dysfunctional variations. Thus body-organs with functions that sync with flourishing in this world come to be.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The creator would have to be something inherent to existence, a force of some kind; call it Logia, that intellect always was and always will be. Logia would be a fringe existing force, subtle and undetectable, but it tries to shape and form reality for its purposes ... The idea of God always carries baggage with it. God implies some sort of ideal power. Nothing ideal exists.

Earlier you stated "I don't believe in god, or gods," but what you described there meets my definition of a god - a conscious agent capable of creating universes. If this universe and the life in it were created with a purpose in mind, its creator would be a god.

Aliens implies that they somehow mastered existence and by some physical means life can be created in a laboratory. thats a tall order.

Life exists, meaning either the first life in the universe assembled itself or was assembled by an intelligent designer. I don't think that there are any other possibilities, and both options are tall orders, so we can't let that be our criterion for questioning one of these options, but not the other. If what you call Logia can exist uncreated and undesigned, why not simpler things like unconscious universes and conscious living organisms?

There's far too many coincidences in nature

Too many coincidences in nature for this to be a godless (or Logia-less) universe? If that's what you are implying, then you are committing the logical fallacy called argument from incredulity, which says in a nutshell, "I just don't see how it could happen, therefore it didn't."

There's also an element of special pleading. If you think nature is too complicated to exist undesigned and uncreated, then how much more unlikely is the existence of an undesigned and uncreated an intelligent agent capable of designing and creating it?

At this point, I could commit the incredulity fallacy and conclude that because I can't see how a god (conscious universe creator) could exist uncreated, it doesn't, but I won't. It's a logical error. I have no way to rule the existence of gods in our out. None of us do.

Purpose opens up a can of worms that hard realists dont like. And their instincts call it bizarre and delusional. Thus it is immediately dismissed.

You're misrepreresnting the thinking of the reason and evidence based thinker. The skeptic requires a demonstrable reason to believe. There is no need for a purposive agent in any of our scientific theories, so none appear in them. And we have naturalistic hypotheses for the two origins problems, the multiverse and abiogenesis.

There is no can of worms, nor is it a matter of liking or disliking the possibility of purpose. There's just no evidence of purpose, nor any need to invoke it.

Furthermore, instinct (I suspect you mean intuition) is not involved, just a few principles suh as skepticism and empiricism that we ample evidence to treat as reliable.

But is instinct a correct way to conclude reality as purely physical.

One cannot draw that conclusion without taking a leap of faith, which is never justified logically. It is better to state that there is no evidence that anything exists that isn't physical.

I would say, however, that your position seems to be based on an intuition. There really is no evidence for Logia beyond you finding nature to be more than what it could be without a creator (too much coincidence), a variation of intelligent design.

Good discussion.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Why does the human body appear logically formed? For instance the legs and feet are made for walking. The arms and hands are made for carrying and grasping. The eyes are made to guide you around. The ears are for you to hear dangers, and to listen. The mouth is made for expression and intake of food. And all of these things exist to move you around and explore. The will guides actions. The mind and heart take in experiences to inform the will.

I accept evolution. But i see crude purpose in the way the body is constructed.

I suppose you are going to say, it is mindless incident with no intention behind it. It just appears that way.

But it is obvious to me the body has intention in its makings and that assessment is wrong.

I dont believe in god, or gods. So no rants about that. But i do see purpose in the human body.

There really shouldnt be any logical function of the body whatsoever with mindless incident.

There is no law that something has to survive and thrive or come together with any convenience whatsoever.

People love to imply the body is an accident of nature. People also love to imply that the laws of nature make life that functions inevitable without mind or intention behind it. And then they go into technical facts trying to imply that nature has no intention in it.

What appears to be is actually true. There is purposes and intentions to the human body. It cannot be explained away.

You obviously don't understand natural selection.......
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I think you make a good point, we are all born into this world taking for granted that things 'just are' No matter how miraculous- 'it's natural' So it can be very difficult to objectively recognize where purpose is required

Ultimately it's not clear anything can exist without it, it's the only phenomena able to act in anticipation of consequences - rather than simply AS a consequence of something already created..

In short, can there be any true creation without creativity?

And you obviously don't understand natural selection either.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There's a lot I could say but, consider that the Universe is justified by how many thoughts it has done and that matter and thought are intertwined.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Not purpose, function. The evolutionary process preserves functional adaptations and weeds out dysfunctional variations. Thus body-organs with functions that sync with flourishing in this world come to be.

But a functional adaptation coming out of nowhere? I understand that function doesnt necessarily imply intentionality, but maybe it does. I understand the point that functions could be survival oriented, and they are not intended to function as they do, but only come out of random variation. The nature of the function may be totally haphazard, but maybe there is a programmed methodology in the cells of organisms.

I mean if life never existed and couldnt even get off the ground with one function, let alone build on that function with more function, that would be more reasonable to expect from a mindless process to me.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But a functional adaptation coming out of nowhere? I understand that function doesnt necessarily imply intentionality, but maybe it does. I understand the point that functions could be survival oriented, and they are not intended to function as they do, but only come out of random variation. The nature of the function may be totally haphazard, but maybe there is a programmed methodology in the cells of organisms.

I mean if life never existed and couldnt even get off the ground with one function, let alone build on that function with more function, that would be more reasonable to expect from a mindless process to me.
Originally the adaptiveness comes from chemistry. The core of life is a cyclical chemical process that is self-sustaining as it makes more of the reactants during the process. Something like A->B->C->A.... Now there exists certain compounds that can influence the speed of the reaction set. If a cyclical reaction chain variant also makes this catalyst E as a by-product, then it speeds itself up, thereby becoming more efficient. This is how functionality comes into the picture as this new reaction cycle variant is now producing this by-product E , whose "function" is to catalyze the primary reaction.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But a functional adaptation coming out of nowhere?

Adaptation in the evolutionary sense comes from genetic variation acted upon by natural selection. Given that the genomes of offspring vary from that of their parents and siblings, and given the scarcity of resources available to individuals including fertile mates and the need to compete for them, biological evolution is inevitable, as well as a type of arms race in nature favoring those with the most useful talents for surviving and reproducing such as flying, smelling food, or camouflaging oneself

I mean if life never existed and couldnt even get off the ground with one function, let alone build on that function with more function, that would be more reasonable to expect from a mindless process to me.

Life is probably inevitable wherever it is possible (abiogenesis, or chemical evolution), with complexity following thereafter from biological evolution.

There is some very interesting work being done by a Jeremy England at MIT that takes of where Prigogine ended in the discussion of dissipative structures and far-from-equilibrium states. It's a new way of conceiving of life, and suggests that its existence, far from being an unlikely stroke of luck, is probably inevitable wherever it is possible.

Dissipative structures include such things as eddies (vortices) in streams, tornadoes, and hurricanes. These structures organize to dissipate energy more efficiently, kinetic energy in the case of vortices, and ambient heat energy in the case of toradoes and hurricanes, which is why they are commoner in the summer, nearer the equator, and are becoming more frequennt and extreme as the earth is warming.

This concept of organized dissipative structures forming to dissipate energy was the brainstorm of Belgian Nobelist Ilya Prigogine, author of "Order Out of Chaos: Man's New Dialogue with Nature." His work was extended to biological systems by Jeremy England. From A New Thermodynamics Theory of the Origin of Life | Quanta Magazine :

Why does life exist? Popular hypotheses credit a primordial soup, a bolt of lightning and a colossal stroke of luck. But if a provocative new theory is correct, luck may have little to do with it. Instead, according to the physicist proposing the idea, the origin and subsequent evolution of life follow from the fundamental laws of nature and "should be as unsurprising as rocks rolling downhill."

From the standpoint of physics, there is one essential difference between living things and inanimate clumps of carbon atoms: The former tend to be much better at capturing energy from their environment and dissipating that energy as heat. Jeremy England, a 31-year-old assistant professor at MIT, has derived a mathematical formula that he believes explains this capacity.

The formula, based on established physics, indicates that when a group of atoms is driven by an external source of energy (like the sun or chemical fuel) and surrounded by a heat bath (like the ocean or atmosphere), it will often gradually restructure itself in order to dissipate increasingly more energy. This could mean that under certain conditions, matter inexorably acquires the key physical attribute associated with life.

Incidentally, the giant red spot of Jupiter is thought to be such a dissipative structure, a huge, centuries old cyclone of sorts which structure is created and preserved by planetary heat below.

So, rather than saying that it all seems too coincidental, we need to understand how nature actually works, and that nature can assemble structural complexity from simplicity. A simpler example would be the way that planets all organize as oblate spheroids due to gravity. Without that concept, one is left wonder how fragments of rock could somehow all impact one another to form that specific shape, and call it statistically impossible when in fact, any other outcome is essentially impossible.. One might imagine an intelligence directing the assembly of the planet.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/08/h...-england-sheds-little-light-on-lifes-origins/

Perhaps his work is an initial stage in the development of the first cell. But as this article states, you need the machinery and the correct coordination and sequencing to get the first cell off the ground and running.

The article says it better than I. But at least England is trying to solve the problem of how structures arise.

Once you get a structure the energy would do the work of making the structure hold energy and becoming a machine.

So perhaps the ID' ers look at the end result going backward instead of trying to solve the problem from physical origins to the product of a first cell.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/08/h...-england-sheds-little-light-on-lifes-origins/

Perhaps his work is an initial stage in the development of the first cell. But as this article states, you need the machinery and the correct coordination and sequencing to get the first cell off the ground and running.

The article says it better than I. But at least England is trying to solve the problem of how structures arise.

Once you get a structure the energy would do the work of making the structure hold energy and becoming a machine.

So perhaps the ID' ers look at the end result going backward instead of trying to solve the problem from physical origins to the product of a first cell.
Evolution news is a Discovery Institute sponsored Creationism propaganda website. Nothing in that site can be trusted.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/08/h...-england-sheds-little-light-on-lifes-origins/

Perhaps his work is an initial stage in the development of the first cell. But as this article states, you need the machinery and the correct coordination and sequencing to get the first cell off the ground and running.

The article says it better than I. But at least England is trying to solve the problem of how structures arise.

Once you get a structure the energy would do the work of making the structure hold energy and becoming a machine.

So perhaps the ID' ers look at the end result going backward instead of trying to solve the problem from physical origins to the product of a first cell.
This is a better overview.
Life, but not as we know it
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Evolution news is a Discovery Institute sponsored Creationism propaganda website. Nothing in that site can be trusted.

Thankyou, i realized that after going back and looking for other articles. They use the logo to lure people into it.

My Apologies!
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
And you obviously don't understand natural selection either.

What you have to understand about natural selection, is that It's an absolute given, fitter designs will naturally tend to be selected over less fit ones. Hence there being more Ford Mustangs today than Ford Pinto's. It's not so much a theory as an unambiguous observation.

The real question is on the arrival of the fittest, not survival- by definition the theory overlooks this core problem
 
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