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Featured A Simple Question: Did Christ's Death Do Away With The Ten Commandments?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by SDRAmerica, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    While some of the laws have to do with ritual, a lot are fairly practical. Helping the poor, don't wrong a stranger...

    Christians might benefit from keeping some of these laws.

    Honestly the "10 commandment" are fairly abstract.

    I believe Christians mostly use the OT to try and justify acceptance of Jesus as the messiah. If you actually read the OT and not just read it according to Christianity's interpretation it seems obvious that Jesus is not the messiah that the OT prophesied. Mathew cherry picks some passages and tries to fit them to the story of Jesus after the fact. That's all my opinion but I really have no vested interest in either religion.

    Even the gospels are just used to justify the theology of Paul. Who actually follows what Jesus taught. Everything is justified through Paul's letters.

    Folks want to be a Christian, that's fine by me but it's all fairly contrived.

    Justify away, I don't personally care, but I think anyone unbiased can see the truth of this religion.
     
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  2. Tammie

    Tammie Member

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    Lostwanderingsoul said: And out of all the 600 plus laws, only ten were carved in stone by God's own hand. These ten will never be done away with....

    Metis said:That really doesn't make a difference as Torah says that the others were given by God as well. It is possible God gave Moses the Ten to bring down to show that they were from Him and not just someone's vivid imagination.

    Ponder This said: I think Mathew Chapter 5 is clear, particularly Mathew 5:18.

    Heaven and Earth haven't disappeared, so why would the law?

    Ponder This said: …...I have a somewhat similar belief that you may have that may satisfy both the Jewish and Christian teachings when dealing with the Law. So, let me ask you this question to see if we're on the same page: do you believe that Jews are still under the Law-- all 613 of them?

    Colossians 2:20-21 - Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

    If you have really read all the 613 laws of the Torah, you will find that most of them are giving you in detail how to to keep the 10 commandments, some are on families, and some are to be kept if you are in Israel, and the last of are of the temple laws. Not having a temple in Israel right now, there are no possible ways to be obedient to them.

    If you have ever been to Israel, you will find that Jews do not believe that the Messiah has come already and will come again. Much less that Christ has redeemed them from the law with his blood. There still waiting on the Messiah to come for the first time. Does this mean that the law is abolished?

    Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    Matthew 22:37-40 - Christ said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    If you truly love God with all your heart, would you have another god before him? (1st Commandment), would you make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of heaven, or earth beneath, or in the waters below...and bow down to them? (2nd Commandment), would you take the name of the Lord in vain? (3rd Commandment), would you not keep the sabbath? (4th Commandment).

    If you truly love your neighbor as yourself, would you not Honor your father and mother? (5th Commandment) Matthew 19:19 - Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Would you kill another person, if you loved that person as much as yourself? (6th Commandment) Would you commit adultery with your neighbor's wife? (7th Commandment). Would you steel from your neighbor? (8th commandment). Would you give a false oath for your neighbor that has done wrong? (9th Commandment). Finally, would you be so materialistic and jealous as to covet other people's belongings?

    What is truly written in your heart, you will do or not do? If you are keeping the commandments to show other people that this is what your doing, it is for the wrong reasons. Therefore, we should serve in newness in spirit or as others have said “the spirit of the law" instead of "the letter of the law".

    Romans 7:6-7 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
     
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  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Maimonides merely listed the teachings of the Law, citing where they're found, and that listing is considered by scholars to be a generally accurate count.

    Actually the Mosaic Law as found in Torah. Msimonides did not invent any of them, plus the Covenant is Abrahamic and was given centuries prior to the Law.

    Doesn't make a difference. The Law was given to all Jews regardless of their level of observance or their affiliations.

    Again, Maimon did not change the Law. The link I provided you has all 613 of them and where they are found in Torah.
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Agreed.

    Again agreed.

    Agreed again. Am I boring you? ;)

    I don't much get into that, but I fully understand where you're coming from.

    I do and I don't. I tend to lean in the direction that probably all religions/denominations are an honest attempt to understand and explain the unknown, and I can appreciate that even if I don't buy into any one of them (check my faith statement at the bottom of the page to see where I'm coming from on that). Therefore, I can walk into a synagogue, church, temple, or mosque and feel quite at home.
     
  5. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    If you are saying that the Law was codified by Maimonides from a scholarly perspective, fine, but the Law was not written by Maimonides. If you say it was, then I disagree.

    Is the 'Mosaic Law' from Moses or from God? Is the Law to obey Moses?

    Then where do you draw the line between Jew and non-Jew? And if there is no line, then why do you speak of Jews?

    If you say that Maimonides wrote the Law, then I disagree. He is merely a great scholar of the Law. I cannot say that his list is complete or perfect, only that it is a great attempt. I cannot say that Jews must obey the Law according to Maimonides.
     
  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    What if we see Jesus as a Rabbi who saw his relationship with God not as something unique, but as a personal relationship any could obtain according to his (Jesus') view and teachings. Obviously he had some disagreement with the Pharisee's understanding but not needing a completely new theology.

    Paul on the other hand held a pretty radical view of Jesus and God.

    Christian's started out as followers of Jesus as a Rabbi. Maybe some even thinking he might have been the Jewish messiah because they saw him as a great teacher, but not God.

    If Paul is taken out of the picture, is this possible?

    Paul had a following in Rome. Without Rome's backing of Paul's theology, would Jesus have been seen as anything more than a teacher of the Torah?
     
  7. Tammie

    Tammie Member

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    Nakosis said: What if we see Jesus as a Rabbi who saw his relationship with God not as something unique, but as a personal relationship any could obtain according to his (Jesus') view and teachings.
    I would say whoever that person believes that Christ is...that would be their theology.

    Matthew 16:13-16 - ...Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Nakosis said: Paul on the other hand held a pretty radical view of Jesus and God.
    As far as Paul having radical views, sounds like a radical view in itself. Paul persecuted Christians before he knew Christ, then he was taught by Christ. Paul had to go through much suffering after he saw Christ as the Son of God.

    Nakosis said: If Paul is taken out of the picture, is this possible? ….would Jesus have been seen as anything more than a teacher of the Torah?

    If you took away Paul's writings, you would still have the four witnesses. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Not to mention, Timothy, and Peter.

    But who knows.....since you have the attitude and belief of cynic, you may have already arrived at a philosophy of your own...made up of your own private notations and cynicism. LOL
     
  8. eldios

    eldios Active Member

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    We won't be needing sperm and eggs in the next part of the program after the day of the Lord.
     
  9. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Yes! And, No!

    Most people don't get it; though, it is simple. When a human lives his life (getting richer) he will have a testament in his early life that will reflect the number of family, the property he has. As he grows older, and richer - in this example, his will will change, the things that do not need to be changed aren't, and the things needing to be changed are. New properties included, sold ones excluded, dead people deleted, and so forth.

    With God the Mosaic Law was for Israel. It spoke to the temple, the priesthood, and much more. Neither the temple, nor the priesthood existed after 70CE by God's will. Christ instituted the New Covenant, the Law of Faith, the Law of Christ. It contains the 10 commandments, and other material, while much that isn't needed for the New Spiritual Israel was deleted.

    So, the things humans must do to please God - these things got accepted into the New Testament. The things pertaining strictly to Israel were deleted.
    The Mosaic law contained no mercy, but stated that people would die if they disobeyed, and live if they could obey 100%. The New Covenant comes with mercy. Sins may be forgiven, though some are not.
     
    #49 Grandliseur, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Did you even open up the link I provided you? The Law is in the Torah. All that Maimonides did was to list them and the verse(s) they come from.

    Moses said that they came from God, and the tablets were just the first ten.

    Being a "Jew" is a nationality, not a religion. There are a great many Jews that are not in Judaism, some are secular, and some belong to other religions.

    Again, please look at the link I gave you. Maimonides clearly did not write the Law.
     
  11. Tammie

    Tammie Member

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    djhwoodwerks said: We won't be needing sperm and eggs in the next part of the program after the day of the Lord.

    This is true for those in the first resurrection, but the bulk of the people will be in the second resurrection and during the millennium they will be very fertile....but the last Great Day God will stop the reproduction even though there will be physical people for that 100 years. :)
     
  12. Tammie

    Tammie Member

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    Am I bad! ... it was not djhwoodwerks that said this, it was eldios that said this. Please except my apology.
     
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  13. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    The first resurrection is of the righteous, the second resurrection is of the unrighteous. The first resurrection is to eternal life, the second resurrection is to eternal damnation. How will people in the second resurrection be "very fertile"?
     
  14. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    You understand that that is only one codification? And that there are other codifications that may not have exactly 613 commandments?

    So if you believe Moses, then you believe the Law is from God, yes?

    So a Jew could be anybody really? Their practice of Judaism isn't even relevant? There is no meaningful line to be drawn?

    Do you know what the Law is? Do you know where it is from?

    Halliday, Resnick, and Walker wrote my Physics textbook. Do I say, "The atoms had better obey Halliday, Resnick, and Walker!"

    Did Maimonides claim revelation from the Almighty when he wrote the law as 613 commandments?
    Did he say, "God has come to me and revealed that the Law can be codified thus"?
    Or was he a great scholar who studied Torah and did his best to codify what he saw within it as others have also tried to do?

    Maimonides 613 commandments will sooner change than the Law of God will change. Why should I say that all Jews must follow the codification of the Law according to Maimonides? Because he was a 'great scholar'? Because other scholars 'generally agree' with him? What about the other codifications? What was your point in linking Maimonides 613 commandments?
     
  15. ronandcarol

    ronandcarol Member
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    A Simple Question: Did Christ's Death Do Away With The Ten Commandments?
    Absolutely not. We are not saved by obeying the commandments but as followers of Christ we WANT to keep the commandments, Jesus said, "If you Love Me, keep my commandments."
    ronandcarol
     
  16. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    The OT says what it says. The NT says what it says. I don't know where you're getting your attitude from.

    I don't use the OT to justify acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah and neither do any of the Apostles. Christ's resurrection from the dead justifies Him as Messiah. The NT clearly states that the as yet unfulfilled prophesies will be fulfilled when Jesus returns.

    You sound like you have a complete misunderstanding of Christianity.
     
  17. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    From conversation with other Christians. Whenever they use the Bible to justify their theology they'd always end up using the letters of Paul. To justify their faith, they would use Jesus.

    Also I was raised a Christian. My story books were a collection of Bible stories for children. This is what I read as a child. It covered the whole Bible and had illustrations. So I was very surprised having knowledge of these OT stories that when I talked to other Christians they had no knowledge of them. In Church we never studied the OT except in reference to Mathew were passages from the OT are use to justify Jesus as the Messiah.

    Christians are interesting. They all have a different theology. So I'd be in a conversation with one Christian and they'd be explaining about God or heaven or hell. Another Christian would come along and claim that the first Christian was completely wrong. Yet both believe their theology was completely accurate because their understanding was guided by the Holy Spirit.

    I was happy to allow them to explain Christian theology to me, all according to them, supported by the Bible and witnessed by the Holy Spirit. However they couldn't seem to agree amongst themselves so eventually I gave up.

    So yes I'm sure you feel I misunderstand Christianity, but I don't feel too bad about that since Christians can't seem to understand Christianity among themselves either.
     
    #57 Nakosis, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
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  18. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I've been told by Jews that they all consider themselves the children of God so Jesus claiming to be the son of God wouldn't be unusual for a Jew.

    Yes, sounds like Paul felt a lot of guilt so created a theology that could absolve him of his guilt. This doesn't mean he had any authority to speak for God.

    Actually there were a lot of writings, stories, gospel that it was decided not to include in the canon because they didn't support the theology of Paul. Even Peter seem to dispute Paul's theology. Paul created a theology for the gentiles.

    About God I have no philosophy because I accept I have no knowledge of God. However this leaves me to question those folks who claim to have knowledge about God. The only thing I have found consistent about believers is their inconsistency among themselves about their belief.

    I'm not even a fan-boy for the Jew but I see a foundation for what Jesus taught in the OT that I don't find in Christianity.
     
  19. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Laws are not fulfilled. That's a category error.

    Obligations are fulfilled. Requests may be fulfilled. But not laws.

    Laws can be enacted, repealed (abolished), obeyed, flouted, and several other categories of action, but not fulfilled. The word has no meaning regarding laws.

    If the law says that you can't speed, how are you going to fulfill that law? What would that even mean? Not speeding? That's merely fulfilling your duty top be a law abiding citizen, and in no ways neutralizes the law. It remains in effect until it is abolished or modified.
     
  20. Tammie

    Tammie Member

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    Djhwoodwerks said: The first resurrection is of the righteous, the second resurrection is of the unrighteous. The first resurrection is to eternal life, the second resurrection is to eternal damnation. How will people in the second resurrection be "very fertile"?



    First of all, I did not say that they would be fertile in the second resurrection, I said that they would be still having children (fertile) in the Millennium.



    The first resurrection for the righteous is after the Great Tribulation before the Millennium, for those who will reign with Christ for 1000 years on this earth. The second resurrection for the unjust or to Damnation is after the 1000 years for the rest of the dead. The Kingdom of God (the new heaven, new earth....the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven) is not until the last great day (judgment period) is over or finished.





    Revelation 20:2-8 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    Revelation 5:10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    Notice the that righteous will reign with Christ on this earth.

    Out of Curiosity:

    Who would the righteous ones reign over if we would all be in Christ? Not to mention that Christ will rule with a rod of Iron. Why would that be necessary?

    What about all the ones that are born in the millennium, don't you think that they have the right to be judged....or are you just going to throw them to damnation with the others?

    Not trying to be mean, but you may want to consider studying more about the two different resurrections, the first death and the second death, even who the ones will be that will be doing the judging, and the differences of God's mercy & grace that he gives us.
     
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