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Featured A Serious Question To Self-Proclaimed Atheists ...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by PureX, Oct 24, 2021.

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  1. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Actually an atheist will fall into the category of "atheist" because they don't believe in any gods. It's not some status to proclaim. It's simple: if you aren't convinced gods exist, you are a non-theist (atheist).

    To my mind EVERYONE is agnostic about gods. No one knows if anything exists that we fallible mortals call a god. Atheists just aren't convinced the claims of religious people are true and valid, thus we fall into the category of atheist. Theists certainly don't know if any god exists, but they believe for a variety of reasons, the most common being how the human brain evolved and how human societies evolved to be religious. there is a lot of social pressure to believe in religious views, especially those of the community.
     
  2. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    That's the point of the thread, isn't it? If I've read it right...
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If you don't understand the analogy, say so.

    I genuinely answered your question and took time to think and reflect on it.
     
  4. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yes, but if it is not logical, then stop asking for it to be logical. Ask other questions and even indirect ones.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I thought this would be a good discussion. I do best thinking in analogy. That's what many do when they speak of God. But if you're going to discredit my points I don't think you're serious about the OP.
     
  6. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    This is, however, quite illogical.

    There are also a great many agnostic theists. So the implication that atheism and agnosticism are some sort of 'twinsies' is false. Logically speaking, we are ALL agnostics. And agnostics is what we will remain (logically speaking) unless we find a logical reason to step past our agnosticism into either theism or atheism. And this is what I am seeking on the part of the atheists: this logical reasoning for stepping past their agnosticism into the presumption that no gods exist.

    Your assertion that the reasoning is the lack of evidence is NOT logical, as the lack of evidence is the logical reason for being agnostic. Which applies to both theists and atheists, alike. What I'm looking for are the logical reasons that atheists go beyond agnosticism, to adopt atheism.
     
    #46 PureX, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Hey, @PureX - any reason why you didn't also address your question to monotheists? They tend to be more hardcore about rejecting gods than the average atheist.
     
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  8. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Or it in unknown for all cases of metaphysical including but not limited to God,
     
  9. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Correct, this is why the lack of evidence for gods is why everyone is agnostic.

    There is no choice to be agnostic given the lack of knowledge. But atheists tend to exhibit more reasoning and objectivity over religious matters so will defer to the logical default of any claim. the default is that any claim that isn't conclusive is by default untrue. Claimants have the burden to prove their claims are true, or at least, likely true. Theists fail, so critical thinkers defer to the logical default and reject theist's claims. Thus: non-theist.
     
  10. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    The short answer: That your logic is limited and they can get away with being illogical without noticing it.

    As a skeptic I simply accept that most humans are somewhat illogical and leave it as that.
     
  11. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    No, it can also be unknown. That is the difference between non-skeptics and skeptics.
     
  12. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    In my experience, when people have to resort to analogies, it's because they can't deal with the issue the way they want to, first hand. And to me, that's a sign of intellectual weakness. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm just saying that what I'm asking for, here, is a simple enough request if you are a clear, logical, honest thinker (as so many atheists are so often telling us all that they are). I see no need for analogies, and too often they only serve to hide obfuscation, anyway. If you don't wish to respond I understand. Not every thread is for everyone.
     
  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Could you consider that they are like most humans and maybe not just logical all the time?
     
  14. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    There are some. I've yet to actually encounter one.
    As you've pointed out, people can be both, so it's not stepping past anything. It's a question of belief, not knowledge.
    Theism and and 'god' are not a (single) group of people and a single concept, they represent a whole host of different and often contradictory mythical beings and those who believe in them. If you're unconvinced by any of them, then you lack a belief in any gods, and are an atheist. If you're convinced by one of them, then you're a theist.

    Are you agnostic with regard to the Loch Ness monster, the Great Green Arkleseizure, or fairies? There is no evidence for any of them and no evidence that they don't exist either.
     
  15. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    PureX, do you believe in astrology? I bet you don’t. You don’t believe in astrology and you don’t define your existence by that lack of belief.


    So it is with atheists. They simply don’t believe in god just as you don’t believe in astrology, and they don’t define themselves by this lack of belief just as you don’t define yourself by your rejection of astrology.
     
  16. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Certainly, apatheism is a reasonable position. To simply ignore the question seems like a very good position to be in. There is also the position of ignosticism, where the whole idea of God is noted as simply being incoherent (essentially by noting, as you did, that there can be no proof or even evidence either way).

    Bu I think you misunderstand the typical atheist position. I do not believe in God for exactly the same reasons I do not believe in Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster. The claims for their existence seem very weak and there seems to be no good reason to think they actually exist.

    Could I be wrong? Of course. But, I think, the lack of evidence has become sufficient to constitute evidence of non-existence (at least, until someone gives strong evidence otherwise) in ALL of these cases. I am NOT assuming them to be impossible. I am simply working under the base position that they do not actually exist.

    It seems that you have a default position that things exist until proven otherwise. I have the opposite default: unless there is a good reason to think they exist, I am likely to be skeptical and default to non-existence. The longer no existence shows up and the more people have searched, the less likely I think the existence to be.

    Let's also add that we are in a society surrounded by theists and theism. The position of being skeptical of the existence of a God is often seen as being immoral, ignorant, and worthy of reducing rights or even death. Pointing out that the theist position is unproven is seen as an affront. And theists consistently try to institute *their* rules as laws, from denigrating gays, to excusing slavery, to disrespecting the hard gained knowledge of the sciences. All this while claiming the moral high ground.
     
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  17. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Yes, but most people will admit to their being illogical, biased, ignorant, and so on (as we all are). Whereas with self-proclaimed atheists, in particular, this seems not to be the case. Which is why I posted this question.
     
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  18. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I remain agnostic about astrology. I neither "believe" not "disbelieve" in it. Why would I?
     
  19. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Good grief, you are exhausting ... I can't be bothered quoting each comment separately so I will take the liberty of numbering them

    1, Imagine believer to atheist is a scale with 100% believer at one end and 100% non-believer at the other end. Your argument seems to be that unless you are 100% non-believer you cannot be an atheist. If you have 1% of doubt you must call yourself an agnostic. At what percentage do you stop being a believer and become an agnostic? Should someone who has a slight amount of doubt about god's existence but is still very religious not also call themselves agnostic? So, if you are defining atheism as only 100% non-believer, but 99,99% is agnostic - ok you win, I'm an agnostic. But I don't accept that very limited basis of defining atheism. It is similar to saying you are not a believer if you have any doubt.
    2. What a non-answer. In other words you are sure you have the correct god. Good luck with that, if history is anything to go by all current gods will be in the dustbin in 1000-years time.
    3. So, reading books that have no meaning to you, praying to something that isn't there; going to church/mosque/synagog/temple does not take time, effort and energy?
    4. Question 1 already answers this. I define myself as an atheist because the chance of there being a god (in my mind) is so miniscule I don't worry about it.
    5. No, by definition a theist can't be a Humanist, that's like saying most Christians are non-believers. Non-believers including atheists can choose to be Humanist, believers can't label themselves that way.
    6. Q1 and Q4 already address this.
    7. I have clearly answered the question. If you don't agree, I suspect that we have differing definitions of atheism. Perhaps you could give your definition, I've given mine.
     
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  20. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    This tends to be where the religious debates are fought, and that is: what is adequate evidence for 1) the individual believer, and 2) objective thinkers. These two tend to be a very broad and wide gulf. The believer is always already convinced, and typically overconfident in their justification. They simply don't understand why their justification for beliefs aren't good enough for critical analysis. Nor do they show many signs that they understand why they believe at all. They often end up very confused themselves, and utterly confused by their confusion to which must be caused by debating atheists. It's never that they might be feeling cognitive dissonance.
     
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