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A Serious Question To Self-Proclaimed Atheists ...

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F1fan

Veteran Member
I start from the baseline premise that it is not possible for a human being to determine the nature or even the existence of 'God'.

CAN ANYONE ELSE, HERE, EXPLAIN TO ME THE LOGIC OF CHOOSING ATHEISM? (Given agnosticism as a baseline human premise)
Actually an atheist will fall into the category of "atheist" because they don't believe in any gods. It's not some status to proclaim. It's simple: if you aren't convinced gods exist, you are a non-theist (atheist).

To my mind EVERYONE is agnostic about gods. No one knows if anything exists that we fallible mortals call a god. Atheists just aren't convinced the claims of religious people are true and valid, thus we fall into the category of atheist. Theists certainly don't know if any god exists, but they believe for a variety of reasons, the most common being how the human brain evolved and how human societies evolved to be religious. there is a lot of social pressure to believe in religious views, especially those of the community.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Note about atheism and agnosticism. I am both in one sense and only one in another. So to me you are asking strong atheism, the position that no gods exist.

And no, I can explain the logic of that position, because I know that they don't accept the logic you use, so could you do it differently?
I know you believe you can do it logically, but let us forget that for a moment.
You and strong atheists think/feel differently, so you have to forget how you think/feel and try to get an idea of how they think/feel. Whether that is logical or not. Or if you like, you have to make a model of their world view as theirs.


That's the point of the thread, isn't it? If I've read it right...
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes. Fortunately, I don't have to concern myself with that possibility as it appears very remote. Nevertheless, from my limited perspective and understanding of existence, it is a possibility.
Logically, there is no such state as "non-existence". There is only 'what is'. What "isn't" is an aberration created by how the human mind cognates information (compare/contrast/repeat).

I thought this would be a good discussion. I do best thinking in analogy. That's what many do when they speak of God. But if you're going to discredit my points I don't think you're serious about the OP.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This has probably already been mentioned but agnosticism and atheism aren't incompatible. The most common form of atheism is agnostic atheism; that is the position that there is no evidence for the existence of a deity, thus the existence of such a being should be considered as null until evidence is found.
This is, however, quite illogical.

There are also a great many agnostic theists. So the implication that atheism and agnosticism are some sort of 'twinsies' is false. Logically speaking, we are ALL agnostics. And agnostics is what we will remain (logically speaking) unless we find a logical reason to step past our agnosticism into either theism or atheism. And this is what I am seeking on the part of the atheists: this logical reasoning for stepping past their agnosticism into the presumption that no gods exist.

Your assertion that the reasoning is the lack of evidence is NOT logical, as the lack of evidence is the logical reason for being agnostic. Which applies to both theists and atheists, alike. What I'm looking for are the logical reasons that atheists go beyond agnosticism, to adopt atheism.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What makes you think this would be needed?

I mean, there are four possibilities:

1. God exists, and the conclusion of God is justified.
2. God exists, but the conclusion of God is not justified.
3. The conclusion of God is justified, but God does not exist anyway.
4. God does not exist and concluding God's existence is unjustified.

The thing you're focusing on is alternative 2: God exists even though we don't have justification for concluding that God exists.

Consider the implications of this:

- every theistic religion is necessarily wrong.

- every claim of an encounter with God is either wrong or so weak that it couldn't serve as justification of God even if true.

- if the God that exists bears any similarity to anyone's current beliefs, it's only by sheer "a stopped clock is right twice a day"-type coincidence.


... and you think there's something in this that ought to make an atheist say "hmm... maybe there is some merit to that 'God' idea"? Really?

Or it in unknown for all cases of metaphysical including but not limited to God,
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You aren't addressing the question I asked. Lack of evidence results in your not knowing.
Correct, this is why the lack of evidence for gods is why everyone is agnostic.

Yet you are choosing (apparently) to presume the negative. Why? Why not simply accept ad remain agnostic?
There is no choice to be agnostic given the lack of knowledge. But atheists tend to exhibit more reasoning and objectivity over religious matters so will defer to the logical default of any claim. the default is that any claim that isn't conclusive is by default untrue. Claimants have the burden to prove their claims are true, or at least, likely true. Theists fail, so critical thinkers defer to the logical default and reject theist's claims. Thus: non-theist.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
This is, however, quite illogical.

There are also a great many agnostic theists. So the implication that atheism and agnosticism are some sort of 'twinsies' is false. Logically speaking, we are ALL agnostics. And agnostics is what we will remain (logically speaking) unless we find a logical reason to step past our agnosticism into either theism or atheism. And this is what I am seeking on the part of the atheists: this logical reasoning for stepping past their agnosticism into the presumption that no gods exist.

Your assertion that the reasoning is the lack of evidence is NOT logical, as the lack of evidence is the logical reason for being agnostic. Which applies to bother theists and atheists. What I'm looking for are the logical reasons that atheists go beyond agnosticism, to adopt atheism.

The short answer: That your logic is limited and they can get away with being illogical without noticing it.

As a skeptic I simply accept that most humans are somewhat illogical and leave it as that.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Correct, this is why the lack of evidence for gods is why everyone is agnostic.


There is no choice to be agnostic given the lack of knowledge. But atheists tend to exhibit more reasoning and objectivity over religious matters so will defer to the logical default of any claim. the default is that any claim that isn't conclusive is by default untrue. Claimants have the burden to prove their claims are true, or at least, likely true. Theists fail, so critical thinkers defer to the logical default and reject theist's claims. Thus: non-theist.

No, it can also be unknown. That is the difference between non-skeptics and skeptics.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I thought this would be a good discussion. I do best thinking in analogy. That's what many do when they speak of God. But if you're going to discredit my points I don't think you're serious about the OP.
In my experience, when people have to resort to analogies, it's because they can't deal with the issue the way they want to, first hand. And to me, that's a sign of intellectual weakness. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm just saying that what I'm asking for, here, is a simple enough request if you are a clear, logical, honest thinker (as so many atheists are so often telling us all that they are). I see no need for analogies, and too often they only serve to hide obfuscation, anyway. If you don't wish to respond I understand. Not every thread is for everyone.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
In my experience, when people have to resort to analogies, it's because they can't deal with the issue the way they want to, first hand. And to me, that's a sign of intellectual weakness. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm just saying that what I'm asking for, here, is a simple enough request if you are a clear, logical, honest thinker (as so many atheists are so often telling us all that they are). I see no need for analogies, and too often they only serve to hide obfuscation, anyway. If you don't wish to respond I understand. Not every thread is for everyone.

Could you consider that they are like most humans and maybe not just logical all the time?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
There are also a great many agnostic theists.

There are some. I've yet to actually encounter one.
And agnostics is what we will remain (logically speaking) unless we find a logical reason to step past our agnosticism into either theism or atheism.

As you've pointed out, people can be both, so it's not stepping past anything. It's a question of belief, not knowledge.
Your assertion that the reasoning is the lack of evidence is NOT logical, as the lack of evidence is the logical reason for being agnostic.

Theism and and 'god' are not a (single) group of people and a single concept, they represent a whole host of different and often contradictory mythical beings and those who believe in them. If you're unconvinced by any of them, then you lack a belief in any gods, and are an atheist. If you're convinced by one of them, then you're a theist.

Are you agnostic with regard to the Loch Ness monster, the Great Green Arkleseizure, or fairies? There is no evidence for any of them and no evidence that they don't exist either.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
PureX, do you believe in astrology? I bet you don’t. You don’t believe in astrology and you don’t define your existence by that lack of belief.


So it is with atheists. They simply don’t believe in god just as you don’t believe in astrology, and they don’t define themselves by this lack of belief just as you don’t define yourself by your rejection of astrology.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Why negate them when you can simply ignore them? The universe is full of possibilities that you have no evidence for or against. Your lack of evidence doesn't mean they are not still possible. So why presume they are not possible based on no evidence? Why not just ignore them unless and until their possibility become evident to you?

Certainly, apatheism is a reasonable position. To simply ignore the question seems like a very good position to be in. There is also the position of ignosticism, where the whole idea of God is noted as simply being incoherent (essentially by noting, as you did, that there can be no proof or even evidence either way).

Bu I think you misunderstand the typical atheist position. I do not believe in God for exactly the same reasons I do not believe in Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster. The claims for their existence seem very weak and there seems to be no good reason to think they actually exist.

Could I be wrong? Of course. But, I think, the lack of evidence has become sufficient to constitute evidence of non-existence (at least, until someone gives strong evidence otherwise) in ALL of these cases. I am NOT assuming them to be impossible. I am simply working under the base position that they do not actually exist.

It seems that you have a default position that things exist until proven otherwise. I have the opposite default: unless there is a good reason to think they exist, I am likely to be skeptical and default to non-existence. The longer no existence shows up and the more people have searched, the less likely I think the existence to be.

Let's also add that we are in a society surrounded by theists and theism. The position of being skeptical of the existence of a God is often seen as being immoral, ignorant, and worthy of reducing rights or even death. Pointing out that the theist position is unproven is seen as an affront. And theists consistently try to institute *their* rules as laws, from denigrating gays, to excusing slavery, to disrespecting the hard gained knowledge of the sciences. All this while claiming the moral high ground.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The short answer: That your logic is limited and they can get away with being illogical without noticing it.

As a skeptic I simply accept that most humans are somewhat illogical and leave it as that.
Yes, but most people will admit to their being illogical, biased, ignorant, and so on (as we all are). Whereas with self-proclaimed atheists, in particular, this seems not to be the case. Which is why I posted this question.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
PureX, do you believe in astrology? I bet you don’t. You don’t believe in astrology and you don’t define your existence by that lack of belief.

So it is with atheists. They simply don’t believe in god just as you don’t believe in astrology, and they don’t define themselves by this lack of belief just as you don’t define yourself by your rejection of astrology.
I remain agnostic about astrology. I neither "believe" not "disbelieve" in it. Why would I?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
1. No, it's really not. I understand the logic of remaining agnostic, and even indifferent. I do not understand the logic (if there is any) of choosing to surpass agnosticism and adopt the presumption that no gods exist.
2. It works for me.
3. Why? That is not a logical expenditure of your time or energy. What I am seeking here is the logic of choosing atheism, as atheists are constantly telling me how they only follow the logic and the evidence. So what is the logic and evidence of choosing atheism? I'm asking.
4. I am not interested in yours or anyone's presumed certainty. I am interested in the logic of choosing atheism as opposed to simply remaining agnostic. Remember, I am starting with the baseline premise that we are all logically agnostic. If you are not agnostic, that's a whole other discussion.
5. Most theists are humanists, as well. So humanism is not a logical factor in choosing atheism.
6. Theists and agnostics experience all those same natural benefits. So they are not logical factors in your choosing atheism as opposed to simply remaining agnostic.

7. Are you unable to answer my question? If so, why do you think that is?
Good grief, you are exhausting ... I can't be bothered quoting each comment separately so I will take the liberty of numbering them

1, Imagine believer to atheist is a scale with 100% believer at one end and 100% non-believer at the other end. Your argument seems to be that unless you are 100% non-believer you cannot be an atheist. If you have 1% of doubt you must call yourself an agnostic. At what percentage do you stop being a believer and become an agnostic? Should someone who has a slight amount of doubt about god's existence but is still very religious not also call themselves agnostic? So, if you are defining atheism as only 100% non-believer, but 99,99% is agnostic - ok you win, I'm an agnostic. But I don't accept that very limited basis of defining atheism. It is similar to saying you are not a believer if you have any doubt.
2. What a non-answer. In other words you are sure you have the correct god. Good luck with that, if history is anything to go by all current gods will be in the dustbin in 1000-years time.
3. So, reading books that have no meaning to you, praying to something that isn't there; going to church/mosque/synagog/temple does not take time, effort and energy?
4. Question 1 already answers this. I define myself as an atheist because the chance of there being a god (in my mind) is so miniscule I don't worry about it.
5. No, by definition a theist can't be a Humanist, that's like saying most Christians are non-believers. Non-believers including atheists can choose to be Humanist, believers can't label themselves that way.
6. Q1 and Q4 already address this.
7. I have clearly answered the question. If you don't agree, I suspect that we have differing definitions of atheism. Perhaps you could give your definition, I've given mine.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
4. By default, positive claims should not be accepted until sufficient good evidence warrants belief (this establishes agnostic atheism as a rational position to hold until evidence either way is provided.)
This tends to be where the religious debates are fought, and that is: what is adequate evidence for 1) the individual believer, and 2) objective thinkers. These two tend to be a very broad and wide gulf. The believer is always already convinced, and typically overconfident in their justification. They simply don't understand why their justification for beliefs aren't good enough for critical analysis. Nor do they show many signs that they understand why they believe at all. They often end up very confused themselves, and utterly confused by their confusion to which must be caused by debating atheists. It's never that they might be feeling cognitive dissonance.
 
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