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Featured A Serious Question To Self-Proclaimed Atheists ...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by PureX, Oct 24, 2021.

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  1. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    How is that different from what I said. C'mon!
     
  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    This is a problem with how you see things.
    Not a problem with us.
     
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  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    There is no choice but to use these terms. And these are actually not terms created by others to refer to atheists. They are actual social constructs. Even I dont like this kind of strong and weak terminologies but the thing is, I have never come across those terms in any academic books or papers. Hard atheists is a yes.
     
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  4. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Because belief has nothing to do with the content. The content of 'theism' is the truth claim being asserted. The content of atheism is the counter truth claim being asserted. The content of agnosticism is the inability to make a determination, and therefor to make any assertion. There is no need for anyone's "beliefs" to be imposed on the content. The content of each position stands on it's own.
     
    #444 PureX, Oct 25, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thats not a fair statement Link. There are many honest atheists. Like in all theologies, and all other kind of "ogies" and "Isms", there are dishonest persons, but generalising dishonesty to all of any group or definition is bigotry.

    I would like to ask you not to do that, but its your prerogative.
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    You are right, I said it in anger. But you are right.
     
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  7. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    And I am simply pointing out that your definitions are NOT how the language is being used by the people you claim have those positions.
     
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  8. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    It has nothing to do with the theist truth claim (God/gods exist). Which is what theism is all about.
    Without the theist truth claim, there is no theism by any other definition.
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Read the rest of what I said. You seem to be confusing the weak and strong agnostic positions as well as confusing the theist/atheist viewpoints as being about something other than belief.
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    An interesting contrast that I noticed when someone quoted the OP:

     
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  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    And, just like any other claim, the question becomes whether there is evidence for the claim and how good it is.

    If the evidence is convincing, you become a theist. If it is not, then you are an atheist. This is whether or not you consider knowledge about the question to be possible (agnosticism).
     
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  12. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Of course it does. Theists believe that at least one god exists. They may also claim to know, but I've never seen any credible justification for that claim.
    Theism is not "the" claim, theism consists of thousands of different and often contradictory claims.
    And any thoughtful and reasonable response to any specific claim will include belief and knowledge. Have you given me sufficient reason to accept (believe) it and can I know one way or the other?

    Some of the theists claims can be dismissed because they are self-contradictory or contradict known evidence, so we can make a reasonable claim to know that they are false. Most, on the other hand, are unfalsifiable, so it's back to have we got good reason to take them seriously? If the answer is no, then not believing it is rational even though it's impossible to know for sure.
    Why is it so important to you to deny the standard definitions and what people are actually telling you about what they believe and know? You are the one who is desperate enough to deny ordinary dictionary definitions and make up a straw man version of atheism.
     
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  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Note first. The rest of your post is good in my understanding.
    But I have never been able to observe a good reason. Maybe you can explain its feature or what instrument to use?
     
  14. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Language does not determine logic. In fact, the way people use words is often very illogical, and even meant to be. Which is why it's so important that in a conversation such as this, we stay as clear and concise as possible, and not get all caught up in personal beliefs and opinions and contexts, and all that. Theism is a truth claim. Atheism is the counter claim. And agnosticism is the state or condition of non-determination. We humans, on the other hand, are all over the place and often in ten places at once. We cannot use ourselves to define these terms or we will not be able to communicate at all.
     
  15. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    So you don't use your understanding of logic? If not, please explain?
     
  16. AppieB

    AppieB Member

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    But the theist believes (accepts, asserts) the claim to be true. The claim is: God/gods exist . The theist does believe this is true.
    The atheist does not believe this is true.
    That doesn't necessarily mean that an atheist believes the opposite is true. That's a different claim (God/gods don't exist).

    The claim itself is different than the believe about the claim. That's where you go wrong.

    Still wondering what your definition of theism is and how Logic can define words.
     
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  17. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I cannot determine the nature or existence of infinity, and yet I can still perceive it as an ideal, even if a profoundly mysterious one.

    The truth nearly always appears paradoxical to our human minds. It's an artifact of how the human brain functions (compare/contrast/repeat).
     
  18. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I am a theist, and I do not accept or assert that God/gods exist as a truth claim. Which is why what I believe or don't believe does not and should not define theism.
     
  19. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    No but if you're going to try to apply logic to terms that have standard definitions, then you need to use them, not make up your own.

    It's also a logical fallacy to set up a straw man version of the position people you are arguing against are taking.
    No, it isn't. Theism consists of thousands of different truth claims, at least most of which are wrong because they contradict each other. Theists are those people who believe one of those claims.
    No it isn't. Atheism is not accepting any of the theist claims are true, i.e. not believing that any are true.
    No, it isn't. Agnosticism is the position that we can't or don't know.
    Dictionaries come in handy here because they try to reflect the consensus in how words are used, which raises the question of why you are ignoring them, and you own advice here, and just making up definitions to suit yourself.
     
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  20. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Unexplained logic is worthless to anyone but ourselves. So I explain the logic of my reasoning. And that's all I am asking of the atheists, here. I don't own any particular logic, and neither does anyone else.
     
    #460 PureX, Oct 25, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
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