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Featured A second contradiction in the Qur'an

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by stevecanuck, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

    There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

    Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

    So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

    It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".
     
  2. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    A second contradiction in the Qur'an

    I see no contradiction here
     
    #2 stvdv, Jun 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
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  3. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    Please tell me based on those two verses whether Islam forbids gambling and alcohol or not. Thank you.
     
  4. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    About forbidding:
    Clearly nothing about 'forbidding'. It does give the advise here, that IF your goal is to 'succeed' THEN you better leave it aside

    Again, nothing about 'forbidding'. But as the other verse, they do warn us that they might get you in more trouble. And a clear advice in the end, that its important to NOT spend more than you can afford. And that is good advise, because the problem usually is, that wine and gambling leads to indulging, unable to stop, and spend more than you have

    And also this one is very clear. Allah makes it clear, that those things may lead you into trouble. BUT you are free (the addition: "in order that ye may consider")

    So, I would say, that these verses are very gentle. Just some common sense advice. Makes sense to me. No contradiction at all.

    I have been with a few Masters, they usually do not 'forbid', but they do give advice. But in the end you are free to ignore their advice. And they are fine with it. They are very patient. IF you need a few years to think about it, they give you all the time you need.
     
    #4 stvdv, Jun 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
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  5. Shakeel

    Shakeel Active Member

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    You're really struggling to find contradictions in the Qur'an. You can keep struggling, but you'll never find one.

    Certainly alcohol is forbidden.
     
  6. Shakeel

    Shakeel Active Member

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    The spending is about charity. What's the point of inventing lies about other people's religion?
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    stevecanuck, I applaud you that you are reflecting and seeing if there are flaws in Quran. Let us know when you think you found one. This one is obviously not a contradiction but good try.
     
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  8. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    Obviously you're not familiar with the language of the qur'an. If Allah tells you to "set it aside", that means do NOT do it. And being "successful" is one the many ways Allah refers to going to Heaven. Translation - "If you want to go avoid burning for eternity, then don't drink or gamble".

    Verse 2:219 says that gambling and drink are allowed if all other obligations are met. The contradiction is obvious. I don't see how you can say otherwise.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  9. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    Not according to 2:219. Please parse that verse for me and tell me how it does not say drink and gambling are allowed after all other obligations have been met.
     
  10. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    Please parse both verses and show me how there is no contradiction. Thank you.
     
  11. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    All form of substance that clutter our mind are to be avoided, alcohol, tobacco, narcotics and so on. Without a clear mind, how would a person realize what Allah ask of us?
     
    #11 Conscious thoughts, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  12. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    Mine says And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous.
    Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 2:219

    Also can't He in an evolving situation observe what is going on, and change things accordingly. You are aware aren't you that the Qur'an is not put together in chronological order. Surah 2 may be after Surah 5. I don't see how they contradict anyway. The sin is greater than the profit that they are an infamy of Satan's handiwork are both saying not to gamble and drink. There's a difference of emphasis.
     
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  13. Shakeel

    Shakeel Active Member

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    You tell us how it does. You can't expect us to work with such lousy arguments.
     
  14. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    Not really. In Quran 2:219, there are two questions that God told Muhammad that his people will ask him. The first question they will ask him is about intoxicating drinks and gambling and the second question they will ask him is about how much or what to spend to the way of Allah and to which God said what you have spare to spend. In other words, God is saying you should spend on your needs first and if you still have some left (what is beyond your needs), then, spend it in the way of Allah and by this way, Allah makes clear His Signs to you so that you may reflect or consider. Here, clearly, Allah is NOT asking you to forsake all your needs just for His sake. The 2 questions in Quran 2:219 are not even related !! So, what contradiction are you talking about ??
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Yes, I agree. Its better that YOU don't do that
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    So, I see. You "KNOW" what Allah thinks, wants, means. Well done. What would Allah think about that?
     
    #16 stvdv, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  17. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    Correct. Same thing.

    I recently reread the qur'an in chronological order. I could see the evolution much more clearly that way. If Allah changed his mind, how is a person to know unless he specifically says so, which he does not.
     
  18. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    I did so in the OP and subsequently in responses to others. One says superfluous funds can be spent on drink and gambling, while the other says not to drink and gamble. It's simple and obvious.
     
  19. Shakeel

    Shakeel Active Member

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    I hardly ever bother to speak about them. You on the other hand often hurry to add a few falsities to any discussion about Islam.
     
  20. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    In your opinion of course. I just share my view on things when asked. I don't know what your problem is. Something you need to work on I guess
     
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