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Featured A Roman Catholic on the Trinity

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Torturous explanation that just doesn´t work. Spirit can mean different things, the essence of a being, or a specific being.

    I don´t use the KJV and haven´t for 40 years, yet modern translations made from the original Koine Greek sources have the changes you allege were made by the KJV.

    I ask once again, why would Christ use terminology, he him, that He knew would lead the Christian Church into error?
     
  2. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    You are right about that. God is holy and He is also spirit. Therefore He is often referred to as the Holy Spirit. As the Holy Spirit He gives what He is, i.e. holy spirit to certain people. There is the giver (God) and there is the gift (holy spirit). Getting them mixed up causes no end of confusion. Almost always the context makes it clear as to whether the scriptures are speaking of the giver or the gift.

    As you said, the Apostles in Acts 2 were filled with the gift of holy spirit, not God Himself, the Holy Spirit. Good observation on your part.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Christ, or clergy ______ Who led the Christian congregation into error were false clergy as per Acts 20:29-30.
    False clergy is the composite ' man of sin ' of 2nd Thess. 2:2-8.
    False clergy is the revealed ' son of lawlessness / perdition '.
    God allows an ' operation of error '- verses 9-12.
    If a person wants or chooses to believe lies then God allows that to happen because they love unrighteousness.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Part of Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40 are Not yet ascended to Heaven - Rev. 20:6.

    I find Jesus' glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 has Not yet come to pass.
    So, to me the ancient nation of ancient Israel was abandoned by God according to Jesus at Matthew 23:38.
    Some have a heavenly calling, some called to be part of the humble meek people to inherit the Earth - Psalm 37:9-11.
    Those figurative humble ' sheep ' are alive on Earth at the time of Jesus' glory and can remain alive on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth.

    Jesus gave us the story or illustration found at Luke 19:11-15 that Jesus, as the nobleman, would have to go away to a far country (Heaven) before he would much later return. So, Jesus' royal government did Not yet go into effect yet.
     
  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    LOL (and we will be laughing with joy!) I have many friends and loved one that I disagree with,but no matter how much we think we know, we only see through a glass darkly. That's why I don't mind criticism of any assertion I put forth. If it survives the fire here, then I'm pretty sure I'm on to something. If not, then some refining is in order. We are all asked to grow spiritually, we're all in need of prayer, and we all fall short of our Creator's goals. So we get up, dust ourselves off, and look for the narrow path He sets before us.

    I'll shortly be spending a good week with the Jehovah Witness side of my family, and we'll laugh, play, have fun and tell slightly exaggerated stories from our youth. Of course, all this is possible now, before Christ returns, because I had the good sense not to get baptized into their religion and find myself shunned.

    Who knows? We may likewise bump into each other before then, grab a drink, and share experiences. If so, I'll look forward to that day, and if not, then toward that brighter day.

    Keep the faith Rrobs! We disagree on a wide litany of issues, but I believe your heart to be in the right place. I don't judge people as "true" or "false" Christians as I prefer to leave that with Christ, but like you I don't have much qualm about doctrine. I'm extremely busy now getting work out the way and trying to get ready for vacation, but I plan to start a thread specifically on Trinity misconceptions sometime during or after Christmas. Look for it and participate. It may need some uh, refining.
     
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  6. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we do see through a dark glass, but then we will see him face to face and know who we really are in Christ Jesus. It's all to easy to get deceived by our flesh, which Jesus declared to have no profit whatsoever.

    Here is one of my favorite sections of scripture:

    1Cor 15:52-57,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
    56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    We do indeed have victory over the devil and death through the loving sacrifice of our living Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I can't understand why anybody would want to pass up such a good deal!

    Have a good time with your JW relatives. I live in the boonies now, so I never see them, but when I lived in the city and they came to the door I always had a good time chatting with them. I admire their tenacity in going door to door spreading the Gospel. I don't see everything they way they do, but I always think of a verse in Philippians:

    Phil 1:18,

    What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
    The main thing is to get people born again. We'll figure out the details at Jesus' second coming.

    God bless you brother.
     
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  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the 'main thing' found at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 is to give an international witness to earth's nations about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 coming to govern over Earth.
    When Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will be the one who will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

    Sure, as Jesus said at Matthew 28:18-20 to make disciples, but Jesus also knew MANY would come 'in his name ' and prove false according to Matthew 7:21-23. Christians, Matthew 10:22, are the ones on the narrow road.......
    Thus, Christians know telling and teaching others about the good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is Not going to get the majority of mankind converted.

    Chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians is about the resurrection. Resurrection for both the heavenly and earthly.
    Only the ' first fruits ' (vss 20,23) have that first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10.
    That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the 'future tense' for the rest who will have an earthly resurrection,
    for there it says, (Not in present tense) but that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
     
  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    You might as well go ahead and tell him about your anointed and 144,000, thatś where you are going.

    After you do, iĺl comment
     
  9. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Paul was given a very specific message by God. He speaks of a "mystery" God gave him to reveal to born again believers in the age of grace which began on the day of Pentecost.

    Eph 3:3-9,

    3 How that by revelation he (God) made known unto me (Paul) the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (See Eph 1:9-12)
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    As you can see, this mystery was not revealed until God gave it to Paul. Verses 5 & 9 specifically says it was hidden in God from the beginning of the world. Col 1:26 says the same thing, it was not revealed until revealed to Paul. It is certain that at the time Matthew was written this mystery was not yet made known. Jesus did not speak about the mystery. The mystery was nothing short of a major game changer in God's overall plan for mankind. 1 Cor 2:8 says the devil would not have crucified Jesus had he known about the mystery. Why?

    Col 1:27,

    To whom (us in this present age of grace, not Israel in the OT or Gospels) God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    When Jesus was on the earth there was one Christ in one place at a time. Now wherever there is a born again son of God there is Christ. Before the devil had one Christ to contend with, now there are millions of Christs for him to deal with. But there is one caveat; if the born again believe does not know it is Christ in him, they do not believe to do the same works Jesus did, which works Jesus assured us we would do.

    John 14:12,

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    The devil has done a bang up job of keeping Christianity as a whole ignorant of this mystery. The verses you referred to in Matthew were to a different people, Israel, at a different time, the Old Testament. Yes, the gospels are still Old Testament. The New Testament did not begin until after Jesus went to his Father as mentioned in John 14:12. Daniel was also written to Israel in the Old Testament. It was Paul who spoke of the way things are in the present age of grace. He was inspired to write 1 Corinthians chapter 15 which does not deal with Israel. It deals with the born again believers who will indeed be gathered together with Christ before Revelations at which time God will once again deal with Israel to fulfill all the promises He made to them in the OT.

    God revealed the book of Romans to Paul, after the day of Pentecost. It is specifically addressed to born again believers, not to Israel (Rom 1:7).

    Rom 5:9,

    Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    Why Christians do not embrace this fantastic hope is truly a major coup of the devil.

    Thessalonians was also revealed to Paul. It was also addressed, not to Israel, but the born again believers (1 Thess 1:1).

    1Thess 4:17,

    Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    It couldn't be simpler.

    Mixing up the different times and peoples of the Bible has caused no end of confusion and has mucked up the greatness of what God accomplished through Jesus Christ.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how that goes against anything I said, if that is what you are implying.

    I have a feeling that you are not that familiar with the mystery I spoke of. One thing is for sure, it would take some time to go over the material I gave in my last post to you. If what I said is all true it would certainly be at odds with most denominational teaching, including Jehovah's Witness.

    I strongly urge you to put more time into the study of the mystery God revealed to Paul. It is the central theme of all of Paul's letters. Consider the Bereans who spent time studying the things Paul told them before coming to a conclusion (Acts 17:11). For doing that, God called them noble.

    I don't know how to impress upon you the fact that, while we born again believers in this age of grace can indeed learn from the Gospels (Rom 15:4), they are not addressed to the church in this age of grace. The doctrine for our age and time is covered in Paul's letters. They are radically different than the Old Testament, including the Gospels which deal with things that happened before Jesus died, was resurrected, and ascended. Also, as I said, the book of Revelations is also addressed, not to us, but to Israel. Revelations tells the story of how God will fulfill all the promises He made to Israel in the Old Testament. Our future is not found in Revelations, but once again, in Paul's letters which clearly state that we will meet the Lord in the air to be with him from that moment on (1 Thes 4:17). Therefore we will absolutely be saved from the wrath of Revelations (1 Thes 1:10). We have already passed judgement and found to be as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:21-22, where it says "now" the righteousness of God is revealed, not in the future, but right now).

    Your life and walk with God will take on a whole new meaning and effervescence if you really understand the security of everlasting life God has already given you. It is guaranteed to you as a born again believer. Such a privilege was not available in the Gospels and it will not be available in the book of Revelations. It is only to be found in the mystery given to Paul. It began at the day of Pentecost and it will end when the events of Revelations commence. Why go through this life not knowing for certain your future when it is so clearly spelled out in Paul's letters, the mystery?

    I think it would be very remiss of you to at least not put some time into studying the things I've told you before just blowing them off. It is radically different than the belief you've probably held for some time. However, the time we hold in belief of something does not determine truth. The scriptures are the source of truth.
     
  12. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Sounds like the gnostics to me.
     
  13. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Instead of attaching labels, how about getting specific and tell me where I'm wrong.

    What do you think the mystery Paul clearly refers to several times in his letters actually means, if not what I said?
     
  14. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    For your convenience I'm including a list of verses where Paul speaks of the mystery:
    Rom 16:25, 1 Cor 2:7, Eph 1;9, Eph 3:3, Eph 3:4, Eph 3:9, Eph 6:19, Col 1:26, Col 1:27, Col 2:2, and Col 4:3.

    Certainly you wouldn't label Paul a gnostic? What do you think Paul is talking about with regards to this mystery?
     
  15. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    You seem to want to put yourself under the Gospels. If I'm correct on that, I'd be curious to get your take on,

    Matt 5:27-30,

    27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    If that is true and we are in fact not saved by the grace Paul reveals in the Epistles, it would seem paradise will have a rather low population and those that will be their will be blind in one eye and missing a hand. I've not actually heard of anyone plucking out their eye despite the fact we all lust after women at some point in our lives. Especially when you consider just looking at her is already committing adultery. I don't know about you, but I've done some rather unsavory things with my right hand. I'd much rather go with grace than cut it off.

    Is grace a "get out of jail free" card? You bet it is! As a matter of fact, it's the only way there is to get out of jail. Any Christian who thinks otherwise is only fooling themselves, unless they are willing to dismember themselves as Jesus suggested in Matthew.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But only if we're open to that grace and commit ourselves to accepting Jesus and living out what he taught.

    IOW, belief alone simply won't cut it according to the gospels and epistles. Christianity is not a rocking-chair religion, whereas all that's needed is to have p.c. beliefs, as it needs to be a life-style-- thus "the narrow path [gate]".
     
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  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Not to be nit picky, but to me basically there is 'one Gospel account' with four writers.
    'The' gospel according to Matthew
    'The' gospel according to Mark
    'The' gospel according to Luke
    'The' gospel according to John
    So, putting oneself under the gospels is Not wrong to say, but to me it's more like putting oneself under 'the' gospel.
    I think that view is just something that sticks with me since childhood.

    Thank you for the opportunity to reply about Matthew 5:27-30 because I find that in those verses Jesus was Not advocating any self-mutilation, but Jesus was stressing metaphorically speaking 'being willing to cut out of one's life' anything harmful', especially spiritually harmful. A painful action designed to protect.
    As it can also be a painful experience, painful to have a limb amputated, etc. being surgically removed.
    That removal is designed to save one's life, so removing what is spiritually harmful saves for 'everlasting life'.
    We know Jesus healed people instantly, sometimes even from a distance (John 4:46-54).
    So, to me that shows that Jesus, as King of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44, Not only has the power to cure but also the desire. Desire to bring us permanent healing -> Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14.
    Permanent healing as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 when mankind will see the return of the Genesis "tree of Life" again on Earth for the purpose of ' healing ' for earth's nations under Christ's 1,000-year reign over Earth.

    The English word ' hell ' in verses 29 B and 30 B is from the word Gehenna.
    Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things where destroyed forever Not burning forever.
    Translating Gehenna into English as hell or hellfire put the flames in biblical hell.
    Biblical hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
    The dead sleep is what I find Jesus believed when he taught the dead sleep at John 11:11-14.
    Jesus, being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures, would have known the Psalms teach sleep in death such as found at Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4. Plus King Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5 the dead know nothing.
    So, Jesus was saying to be cast into Gehenna would mean one's destruction.
    As Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be 'destroyed forever', Not roasted forever.
     
  18. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you believe the scriptures, so let's see what they say on the matter.

    Heb 10:14,

    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
    Rom 3:22,

    Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    Eph 2:10,

    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    There are many more, but these should suffice to see the true greatness of Jesus' work. He did a complete work. He does not need us to finish it up. We were saved by grace, not of works.

    Eph 2:8,

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    After salvation, do we revert back to works? That's what the Galatians thought and God called them foolish for thinking that way.

    Gal 3:1-3,

    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    We are not dammed by our sins. It's the sin nature we inherited from Adam that is the problem. We commit sins because of that sin nature.

    Rom 5:12,

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    Jesus solved the sin problem by making it available for us to get a whole new nature. That is the gift of holy spirit that was first given on the day of Pentecost. We still have a sin nature which is dwells in the flesh. God never gave us an "improved" flesh. Jesus said there is no profit in the flesh, that it is the spirit that gives life.

    John 6:63,

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.​

    Paul said much the same thing.

    Rom 7:18,

    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.​

    He goes on to give the solution.

    Rom 7:25,

    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    When you keep your mind on Jesus Christ you are walking in the spirit. Keeping your mind on yourself and your own actions is walking by the flesh

    Rom 8:5,

    For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.​

    The word mind is the Greek word phroneo. Here is Strong's definition of phroneo:

    1. to exercise the mind, i.e. entertain or have a sentiment or opinion.
    2. (by implication, mentally) to be disposed (more or less earnestly in a certain direction).
    3. (intensively) to interest oneself in (with concern or obedience).

    Rom 8:1,

    [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Gal 5:25,

    If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.​

    The best way, the only way, to minimize your sinning is by walking in the spirit. Trying to control your flesh is fruitless, it will never bring profit to your life.

    Gal 5:16,

    [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

    To state it plainly, you become what you look at. Look at your flesh and you fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Look at Jesus Christ (the scriptures) and you become more Christlike.

    If you want to follow the law remember this:

    Gal 5:3-6,

    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised (follows law), that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.​

    The upshot is that your walk is determined by what you think about, not by controlling your flesh, which you can't do anyway. If you don't believe me perhaps you will believe the Apostle Paul. See what he said in Romans chapter 7. I think if you take an honest look you will see I am absolutely aligned with the scriptures.

    I know the Epistles of Paul are at odds with the things Jesus said in the Gospels because when Jesus was here the new birth was not available. It was not available until the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. That is the first time God gave anybody the perfect gift of holy spirit wherein lies our perfection.

    I may have asked you this before, but if not I'll ask again, if it is possible to undo God's workmanship and loose our salvation, how many sins do you get before loosing that salvation? Just how closely do we have to follow what he taught? Remember, he taught that there is no profit in the flesh and that merely thinking about that gorgeous, scantly clad woman is as good as committing adultery with her.

    We all sin every day. If you don't think that is true, God calls you a liar.

    1John 1:10,

    If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    What to do when you sin? Real simple:

    1John 1:9,

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    To confess our sins is to simply admit you sinned. Simply admit you sinned to God and He will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Don't read anything into this verse that's not there. There is no limit as to severity or amount. Whether you sin one time or a million times, as long as you confess them to God He will forgive you. You are his dearly beloved son, born of His seed.

    1Pet 1:23,

    Being born again, not of corruptible seed (your first birth), but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    Incorruptible means just that, there is nothing you can do that will make it corrupt.
     
    #158 rrobs, Dec 12, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  19. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Once again you quoted exclusively from the Old Testament, before Jesus sacrificed himself for us and was raised from the dead.

    How did his work change things? Or did Jesus' work not change anything at all? Do you understand the things Paul said in the Epistles are radically different than the things Jesus said in the Gospels? Why do you suppose that is?

    I think it is very convenient to say Jesus was speaking metaphorically about plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand, but I don't see any indication in the text itself that would justify that thinking. He said what he meant and meant what he said. Romans is crystal clear that there is no way to get into paradise except by grace, by the work that Jesus did, not by the works that we do.

    Read the first 8 chapters of Romans to see the problem and how God solved it through His son, Jesus Christ. It started by grace and it continues by grace as long as we are here on this earth.

    Gal 3:1-3,

    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    Galatians is clearly at odds with the thinking that only our actions after the new birth ensure our continued salvation. You might want to read my post #158 in this thread for more detail.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    The Sermon On the Mount, the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, the Parable of the Seed & Sower, the Parable of the Widow's Mite, and verses as found in James' and Paul's epistles say otherwise.

    One of the keys to better understanding this is what the word "agape" actually entails, as the word "love" in English doesn't capture this. "Agape" in Koine Greek is an "active noun", namely that you live it out, not just have it cognitively.

    Therefore, the concept that all one has to have is a p.c. belief about Jesus, such as the "Goats" did and yet were condemned, simply defies the gospel. Matter of fact, it's outright dangerous as it can lead to moral laziness while believing "I'm saved!".
     
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