A Revelation

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

In other words, many theists are simply refusing to accept our word for what we actually think and believe (or don't).

You can see this in their responses -- responses like "but what if God wants you to..." or "why are you so angry with God?"

Do you see it? I see it all the time, when I say that I don't believe in God, and give my reasons for my non-belief, and the response has been, more often than not, "why are you so angry with God?" That is actually dismissing my own thoughts in my own mind, and replacing them with the thoughts of the believer. That's really quite incredible.

 

[Secret Chief]

Self-denial is a hard thing to get past. But in your heart of hearts, deep down, you know that god still loves you.

 

[Polymath257]

Self-denial is a hard thing to get past. But in your heart of hearts, deep down, you know that god still loves you.

Either that, or deep down, in your heart of hearts, you know that there is no god.

There are people who simply do not believe in any deities. That is not self-denial. It is simply self-honesty.

 

[ChristineM]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

In other words, many theists are simply refusing to accept our word for what we actually think and believe (or don't).

You can see this in their responses -- responses like "but what if God wants you to..." or "why are you so angry with God?"

Do you see it? I see it all the time, when I say that I don't believe in God, and give my reasons for my non-belief, and the response has been, more often than not, "why are you so angry with God?" That is actually dismissing my own thoughts in my own mind, and replacing them with the thoughts of the believer. That's really quite incredible.

It happens often and no amount of reason and explanation is going to make the theist believe that you know your own mind than some complete stranger does

 

[Polymath257]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

In other words, many theists are simply refusing to accept our word for what we actually think and believe (or don't).

You can see this in their responses -- responses like "but what if God wants you to..." or "why are you so angry with God?"

Do you see it? I see it all the time, when I say that I don't believe in God, and give my reasons for my non-belief, and the response has been, more often than not, "why are you so angry with God?" That is actually dismissing my own thoughts in my own mind, and replacing them with the thoughts of the believer. That's really quite incredible.

I've noticed this as well. Many (not all) theists really seem to think atheists *really* believe in God but are in denial or rebellion. They seem to be unable to comprehend that other people *really* do have different beliefs.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Self-denial is a hard thing to get past. But in your heart of hearts, deep down, you know that god still loves you.

No, I know nothing of the kind.

Here's what I DO know, however -- the god that was presented to me in my formative years would only "love" me under certain, very rigid conditions, and if I default, will punish me more severely than anything we can even conceive of.

And I also know this: that isn't "love."

 

[Heyo]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

In other words, many theists are simply refusing to accept our word for what we actually think and believe (or don't).

You can see this in their responses -- responses like "but what if God wants you to..." or "why are you so angry with God?"

Do you see it? I see it all the time, when I say that I don't believe in God, and give my reasons for my non-belief, and the response has been, more often than not, "why are you so angry with God?" That is actually dismissing my own thoughts in my own mind, and replacing them with the thoughts of the believer. That's really quite incredible.

I don't see it as malicious. For some theists it is simply unthinkable that there could be no god or even that someone could not believe in god. It is not active denial it is just lack of imagination. Those people also have difficulties with hypotheticals.
There is no use in trying to talk to them. They are mentally incapable of understanding.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see it a lot. Sometimes I'll be asking about god as a mode of conversation and because they consider my questions thought-provoking it means I want to believe in their god. "She's asking 'deep' questions. She must want to know 'my' god."

A few people here throughout the years a couple off line got frustrated and said "but how can there be something rather than nothing!" Almost as if their meter broke from talking to someone who doesn't have any type of concept of god (and the closest one they can relate to).

It's a bit annoying. A lot of times when they finally kinda get it, they either leave the conversation or, tell me directly, why should I talk to you as a non-believer.

 

[Cooky]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

In other words, many theists are simply refusing to accept our word for what we actually think and believe (or don't).

You can see this in their responses -- responses like "but what if God wants you to..." or "why are you so angry with God?"

Do you see it? I see it all the time, when I say that I don't believe in God, and give my reasons for my non-belief, and the response has been, more often than not, "why are you so angry with God?" That is actually dismissing my own thoughts in my own mind, and replacing them with the thoughts of the believer. That's really quite incredible.

I also find it repulsive when someone claims to know what another thinks based on their own assumptions. For instance, a Protestant might claim that a Catholic is "worshipping" Mary when the Hail Mary prayer is said... As if one person can attribute their hypothesis as another's reality with certainty... They can't... Yet we see this happen a lot in certain religious conversations.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't see it as malicious. For some theists it is simply unthinkable that there could be no god or even that someone could not believe in god. It is not active denial it is just lack of imagination. Those people also have difficulties with hypotheticals.
There is no use in trying to talk to them. They are mentally incapable of understanding.

I agree. It seems to be an inability to consider alternative views. I am reminded of a quote from Aristotle:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

 

[Secret Chief]

Either that, or deep down, in your heart of hearts, you know that there is no god.

Damn, you got me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I agree. It seems to be an inability to consider alternative views. I am reminded of a quote from Aristotle:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Mind if I steal that from you?

 

[WalterTrull]

It seems it's all a matter of definition.
There are sooo many definitions of God. What ever you believe is your creator I suppose would be your God. Atoms? that works. Darwin? that works. The Christian version? That works. Lots and lots of others, including my own version.

 

[Quintessence]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

Let me clarify some things here with respect to how I think about this.

Every human "believes in" that which other peoples and cultures call their gods. This is an inescapable result of the fact that if we are inclusive of all types of theism, everything ends up being a god to some culture or another. I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't "believe in" the universe, reality, and everything (because of course I haven't - that's insane). Across all types of theism, the gods are understood as that which is worthy of worship. What they are beyond that varies tremendously, but perhaps the one common point is that something is worthy of worship because it is in some way greater. It has special importance or value; it's something beyond our own limited egos and perspectives. I've also never met anyone who doesn't "believe in" something greater than they are or who lacks values. This is why I sometimes say "I don't believe in atheists" because from a perspective that accounts for the full spectrum of theological diversity, it's untenable. However...

What I have met are people who choose not to deify various aspects of reality that others deify. They decide that some aspect of reality is not worthy of worship in their eyes. And that? That's not just totally fine, it's expected and necessary. It's routine for monotheists as well as atheists. It's even done in some sense by polytheists, who prioritize worship based on what is most relevant to their lives and values. I have also met people who choose not to use words like "god" to describe that which is greater or that which they deeply value. This is also totally fine and is an expression of their cultural diversity. If their cultural understanding of that word means it is inappropriate for them to call these things gods, they shouldn't call them gods. They should keep to their culture and their ways (assuming they're happy with them!).

I put "believe in" with quotations throughout here for a reason that's worth expanding on for a moment. Since dialogues about theism have been heavily influenced by faith-based religions, Westerners often talk about the gods as if they are something "believed in." Historically and elsewhere, honoring the gods isn't about "believing in" them, it is about showing devotion through action. It is about who you are and whose you are, then recognizing this to more mindfully cultivate relationships with that which governs you and yours. For example, career teachers are governed by (and in service to) the Spirit of Learning whether or not they "believe in" such deifications. If they don't deify the process of learning, who cares? That's symptomatic of them not living in a polytheist culture, and cultural diversity is a good thing to my mind. If we all saw things the same way that'd be boring!

 

[Polymath257]

Mind if I steal that from you?

Given that it is a quote from Aristotle, and is public domain, feel free to use it any time you would like.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I think you are absolutely correct in your revelation; at least this is something I've long noticed in the baptist/evangelical/non denom circles I've grown up in.

What I heard commonly is that atheists were people who were angry at god, were seeking to rebel against him, or lied to themselves that they didn't believe in him. As an atheist now, it's interesting looking at how I thought then vs. now.

A lot of those kinds of christians believe in the absolute reality of their beliefs, and dismiss anything that challenges that as bias or being misled by "the enemy" or "the world." They think of it as a choice/willful act rather than as being convinced; at least, that's been my experience.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

In other words, many theists are simply refusing to accept our word for what we actually think and believe (or don't).

You can see this in their responses -- responses like "but what if God wants you to..." or "why are you so angry with God?"

Do you see it? I see it all the time, when I say that I don't believe in God, and give my reasons for my non-belief, and the response has been, more often than not, "why are you so angry with God?" That is actually dismissing my own thoughts in my own mind, and replacing them with the thoughts of the believer. That's really quite incredible.

Dear Evangelicalhumanist,

Luckily, what another thinks that you believe, is rather irrelevant.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[ChristineM]

Dear Evangelicalhumanist,

Luckily, what another thinks that you believe, is rather irrelevant.

Humbly
Hermit

Unless they insist they know your mind better than you do?

 

[halbhh]

In another thread, I just received what I think is a very real revelation: that theists not only believe that atheists are wrong in not believing in God or gods, theists actually think that we in fact DO believe in God or gods, but just refuse to admit it.

In other words, many theists are simply refusing to accept our word for what we actually think and believe (or don't).

You can see this in their responses -- responses like "but what if God wants you to..." or "why are you so angry with God?"

Do you see it? I see it all the time, when I say that I don't believe in God, and give my reasons for my non-belief, and the response has been, more often than not, "why are you so angry with God?" That is actually dismissing my own thoughts in my own mind, and replacing them with the thoughts of the believer. That's really quite incredible.

That condition: really believing and then denying it and posting as an 'atheist' -- that seems very rare to me, and I don't know whether I've seen one.

For me, is seems as if there are perhaps 4 or 5 significantly populated groupings/categories of atheists, as I've met or talked with.

There is one sub-group of those that do seem to believe in God (but only) on an unconscious level, but also think they do not believe. So, they are definitely not hiding that they believe, they are saying accurately they don't believe.

The way I learned this particular sub-group exists is that I figured out I was in that state, for a time, when I looked back and reviewed my experience of different viewpoints and attitudes I had over time.

...

There's more --

To me, each person seems (comes across to me) as very unlike anyone else.

Ya'll are so unalike each other.

But everyone is that way to me. I will meet a new person, and they are so completely different from anyone else I've met (of thousands) that it surprises me every time: how can people be so extremely individual and unique??? When will the possibilities get used up, and someone similar to another person show up???

 

[sun rise]

It seems it's all a matter of definition.
There are sooo many definitions of God.

everything ends up being a god to some culture or another.

As someone who used to be an atheist who did not care one whit about the very question, I realize in retrospect that I did not care about religion finding it a waste of time and a 'great sky being' to be an odd conception at best.

That changed. And I now accept what is close to advaita, a non-dual, frame-of-reference. Some followers of advaita are atheists and some are not depending on their view of the words 'atheist/theist'.

My personal view of being a theist embodies paradoxical statements of That being "on all planes and beyond all planes", "manifest and unmanifest" and thus not graspable by the human intellect.

It has also left me with the strong belief that in this era especially actions count. We see so-called believers who say they accept a scripture, but whose actions deny that scripture.

That has also left me with preferring honorable atheists to hypocritical so-called believers.