1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured A question to the Pantheists

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Oct 17, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,671
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    This is no new question, and many in the past have tried to answer it in their own way. I would like to see how our colleagues here would be able to address this as a logical problem.

    Pantheism in its very simplest idea is "God and nature are one". Philosophically there are very lengthy definitions and explanations but we can keep it short.

    Predominantly, Hindu's have this as their metaphysical, religious stand. To a lesser degree, Muslim & Jewish thinkers, and others have also thought about it and embraced it as their theological position although there maybe variants in their propositions. Sufi's are Muslims who take this position.

    The problem is this.

    1. God is nature.
    2. God created nature.
    3. Thus God had to have existed before creating nature.
    4. Thus God cannot be nature.

    I know there are responses to this problem available right now but I believe that would change pantheism into something else. I would like to hear your thoughts.

    This is not an internal criticism of pantheism but an external criticism of creationists who adopt pantheism.

    Peace.
     
    #1 firedragon, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,280
    Ratings:
    +13,245
    Pantheism is god is nature so it excludes god creating nature and god existing before nature (nature meaning the physical universe and all that's in it).

    I'm not understanding how its a problem unless you're comparing abrahamic view of god to pantheist view?

    Can you explain?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,695
    Ratings:
    +2,540
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    number two is wrong. doesn't fit pantheism. that would be panentheism.


    god has a nature and nature is god
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,671
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Pantheism does not necessarily "require" creation or an explanation to creation. I am not posing an internal criticism. So it might not be relevant to all.
     
  5. RayofLight

    RayofLight My pronouns: they/them

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    5,217
    Ratings:
    +4,646
    Religion:
    Pagan luciferian Witch
    I as a pantheist polytheist don't know nor care if the gods created the earth. Could've been the big bang. Also while the earth itself is a deity and so is the universe doesn't mean a deity outside it couldn't have created it
     
    #5 RayofLight, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,280
    Ratings:
    +13,245
    Pantheist polytheist?
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,671
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Brother, how do you reconcile pantheism and polytheism?
     
  8. RayofLight

    RayofLight My pronouns: they/them

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    5,217
    Ratings:
    +4,646
    Religion:
    Pagan luciferian Witch
    I think I'm confused. I mixed up definitions. Im a polytheistic animist. Not pantheistic. This is why I don't type when I'm tired
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. RayofLight

    RayofLight My pronouns: they/them

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    5,217
    Ratings:
    +4,646
    Religion:
    Pagan luciferian Witch
    See above
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,671
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Haha. No problem brother. I have noticed that I make so many errors when typing in a hurry. A strange thing.

    Cheers.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. RayofLight

    RayofLight My pronouns: they/them

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    5,217
    Ratings:
    +4,646
    Religion:
    Pagan luciferian Witch
    I mean my beliefs do have elements of pantheism in the fact I believe the gods are part of nature.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +9,135
    Religion:
    Pagan, Druid
    I do via a concept similar to Brahman. The Gods imminate from a non-conscious "Source", and this source is a fundamental aspect of Nature, that orders it (consider it like pure energy/power/mana).

    Also know as soft Polytheism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. RayofLight

    RayofLight My pronouns: they/them

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    5,217
    Ratings:
    +4,646
    Religion:
    Pagan luciferian Witch
    That's kinda what I think I believe but Im still trying to figure out if that's what I believe or if my beliefs are more difficult to define
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,671
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    You mean Nirguna Brahman?
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,280
    Ratings:
    +13,245
    Makes more sense. Ha. Though don't they overlap?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. RayofLight

    RayofLight My pronouns: they/them

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    5,217
    Ratings:
    +4,646
    Religion:
    Pagan luciferian Witch
    They do sometimes specially if you like me and believe Nature is divine
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +9,135
    Religion:
    Pagan, Druid
    That fits, had to look it up (I'm not super knowledgeable about Hinduism). The Gods themselves would be Saguna Brahman, I guess.

    Edit: emphatic edit
     
    #17 The Hammer, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,671
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Thats not how it works brother.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  19. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +9,135
    Religion:
    Pagan, Druid
    Works for me. Which is why I said the concept is similar to, not identical to.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,671
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Hammer. I would like to request you to read up a little bit on saguna brahman prior to making statements like "The Gods themselves would be Saguna Brahman, I guess". When I said it doesnt work that way, I mean to say that you have got it all wrong in a nice manner.

    I just hope you understand. Anyway, I think this is off topic now.

    You were earlier referring to a concept similar to Nirguna Brahman, and just leave it there I suppose. If you have a solution to the OP please speak of it. Thank you very much.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
Loading...