A question for everyone.

[Frank Goad]

In Genesis 2:7.It does not say man was given a soul.

So how do you explain this?On this website I found?

Stumper questions Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked!:

1. If the human soul IS the person, how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1Kings 17:21)?

 

[stvdv]

If the human soul IS the person

False

Hence

Solves

how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1Kings 17:21)?

 

[sun rise]

In Genesis 2:7.It does not say man was given a soul.

So how do you explain this?On this website I found?

Stumper questions Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked!:

1. If the human soul IS the person, how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1Kings 17:21)?

It's the exact opposite

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[dybmh]

In Genesis 2:7.It does not say man was given a soul.

Proverbs 20:27 uses the same word as Genesis 2:7.

Gen 2:7

זוַיִּ֩יצֶר֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה

KJV: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
​

Prov 20:27

נֵ֣ר יְ֖הוָה נִשְׁמַ֣ת אָדָ֑ם חֹ֜פֵ֗שׂ כָּל־חַדְרֵי־בָֽטֶן

KJV: The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
​

See here, the KJV in one place translates the word as "spirit" and in the other place translates as "breath", that's a little weird.

The word נִשְׁמַ֣ת can mean spirit just as much a breath. And this נִשְׁמַ֣ת is the candle, filling up the insides like light. Therefore, a נִשְׁמַ֣ת, per King Solomon is a soul. Eternal, because it is spirit coming directly from the LORD.

Trying to go backwards though, and trying make the proverb make sense using "breath" doesn't fit. The breath is a candle? I don't think so. Candle means light, light means soul.

 

[Kenny]

In Genesis 2:7.It does not say man was given a soul.

So how do you explain this?On this website I found?

Stumper questions Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked!:

1. If the human soul IS the person, how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1Kings 17:21)?

I agree... he wasn't given a soul, he became a living spirit. A spirit that has a soul.

 

[nPeace]

In Genesis 2:7.It does not say man was given a soul.

So how do you explain this?On this website I found?

Stumper questions Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked!:

1. If the human soul IS the person, how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1Kings 17:21)?

I think these stumpers need to do some research.
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

The soul as the life of the person, can go out - leave, and come in - return.
That's not saying the life of the person is a living being, but if one dies, they lose their life. It's gone.

If they are given life, the life is returned to them.
Stumper question for the stumpers...
According to 1 Kings 17:21, how was the life returned to the boy?
Hint: Didn't God give the boy life?

When reading soul in the Bible, the meaning is one or two of the words above, determined by the context.

 

[nPeace]

Proverbs 20:27 uses the same word as Genesis 2:7.

Gen 2:7

זוַיִּ֩יצֶר֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה

KJV: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
​

Prov 20:27

נֵ֣ר יְ֖הוָה נִשְׁמַ֣ת אָדָ֑ם חֹ֜פֵ֗שׂ כָּל־חַדְרֵי־בָֽטֶן

KJV: The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
​

See here, the KJV in one place translates the word as "spirit" and in the other place translates as "breath", that's a little weird.

The KJV is like that. Inconsistent.

The word

נִשְׁמַ֣ת can mean spirit just as much a breath. And this נִשְׁמַ֣ת is the candle, filling up the insides like light. Therefore, a נִשְׁמַ֣ת, per King Solomon is a soul. Eternal, because it is spirit coming directly from the LORD.

Trying to go backwards though, and trying make the proverb make sense using "breath" doesn't fit. The breath is a candle? I don't think so. Candle means light, light means soul.

The candle goes out, right?

 

[dybmh]

The candle goes out, right?

The candle of the LORD? Doubt it.

Is breath a candle? or Per the JW translation, a "lamp"?

"The breath of a man is the lamp of Jehovah,Searching through his innermost being."

How does breath search? It makes sense for light to search, or a spirit to search, but breath?

 

[nPeace]

The candle of the LORD? Doubt it.

Is breath a candle? or Per the JW translation, a "lamp"?

"The breath of a man is the lamp of Jehovah,Searching through his innermost being."

How does breath search? It makes sense for light to search, or a spirit to search, but breath?

Strong's Hebrew: 5397. נְשָׁמָה (neshamah) -- breath
Perhaps I can hear your thoughts on this.

 

[dybmh]

Strong's Hebrew: 5397. נְשָׁמָה (neshamah) -- breath
Perhaps I can hear your thoughts on this.

From the link: This is the verse I cited in my original answer.

Neshama - Wikipedia

Neshama (Hebrew: נשמה) is a Hebrew word which can mean "soul" or "spirit".​

Also, I found this:

Proverbs 13:7

"The light of the righteous shines brightly But the lamp of the wicked will be extinguished."​

So it's possible that the light in the lamp is not extinguished for the righteous. The idea of an eternal soul has scriptural support.

Eta: Deuteronomy 20:16, The JW translation needs to add words to the text to make the translation: "Neshama" = "Breath"

"But in the cities of these peoples, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not allow any breathing thing to live."

A more literal translation would be

But in the cities of these peoples, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not allow any breathing thing to live.

Any breath to live? That's a little bit of a labored translation. Of course "spirit" or "soul" fits perfectly in all the examples so far.​

 

[nPeace]

From the link: This is the verse I cited in my original answer.

View attachment 69180

Neshama - Wikipedia

Neshama (Hebrew: נשמה) is a Hebrew word which can mean "soul" or "spirit".​

Do you trust the Wiki article to be accurate?
It doesn't appear to be. How did they arrive at the word meaning soul or spirit?

SPIRIT
The Greek pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

Another Hebrew word, nesha·mahʹ (Ge 2:7), also means “breath,” but it is more limited in range of meaning than ruʹach. The Greek pno·eʹ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mahʹ.

Also, I found this:

Proverbs 13:7

"The light of the righteous shines brightly But the lamp of the wicked will be extinguished."​

So it's possible that the light in the lamp is not extinguished for the righteous. The idea of an eternal soul has scriptural support.

You quoted Proverbs 13:9 - The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked will be extinguished.

The light of the lamp is not the soul.
Is there a reason you are assuming it is?
Also, do you have any basis for saying A is possible, or is that just a suggestion?

The Bible says the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20
Either it is immortal, or it is not. It cannot be both.
Would you agree?

You'll also need to tell your audience what the soul is.
What is the soul?

Eta: Deuteronomy 20:16, The JW translation needs to add words to the text to make the translation: "Neshama" = "Breath"

"But in the cities of these peoples, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not allow any breathing thing to live."

A more literal translation would be

But in the cities of these peoples, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not allow any breathing thing to live.

Any breath to live? That's a little bit of a labored translation. Of course "spirit" or "soul" fits perfectly in all the examples so far.​

Did you look at Strong's?
synonym נפשׁ כָּל נְשָׁמָה every breathing thing Deuteronomy 20:16; Joshua 11:11,14; 1 Kings 15:29; כָּלהַֿנְּשָׁמָה Joshua 10:14; Psalm 150:6; נְשָׁמוֺת Isaiah 57:16.

You didn't say anything about the Hebrew word nephesh, though.
Did you give consideration to the meaning?

 

[dybmh]

Do you trust the Wiki article to be accurate?

A perfectly fair question. Not really, but then per JW translation, Strong's is wrong too. So we've both brought sources which aren't super reputable on this one.

How did they arrive at the word meaning soul or spirit?

I'm not sure. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

SPIRIT
The Greek pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects

Agreed. This is all about ruach. We're talking about neshama.

Another Hebrew word, nesha·mahʹ (Ge 2:7), also means “breath,” but it is more limited in range of meaning than ruʹach. The Greek pno·eʹ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mahʹ.

Yes. As I'm researching, I'm seeing plenty of verses where "spirit" doesn't fit where "breath" does fit for essentialy the same word.

You quoted Proverbs 13:9 - The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked will be extinguished.

The light of the lamp is not the soul.
Is there a reason you are assuming it is?

It's combining Proverbs 13:7 and Proverbs 20:27 to understand the lamp of the LORD. 20:27 says: The neshama of man is the lamp ( per JW translation ). 13:7 says: The lamp of the righteous shines brightly, and it's implied that it is not extinguished. That's why I raised it as a possiblity, and idea which has scriptural support.

The Bible says the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20
Either it is immortal, or it is not. It cannot be both.
Would you agree?

Yes! Most definitely. I am so glad you brought that chapter. It also says the soul of the righteous, the soul of the wicked who becomes righteous, will surely live! If surely die is soul death, surely live is soul life.

Can it be both? I guess what the scripture brought so far is saying is that the soul is eternal IF it is righteous. This matches the Eden story, Adam and Eve would have had access to the Tree of Life had they not sinned. If so, they would have been righteous, and "surely lived".

So, it can be both if there are different rules for the righteous compared to the wicked.

You'll also need to tell your audience what the soul is.
What is the soul?

A divine spark. An itty-bitty tiny spec of holiness from the Eternal All Mighty Creator of everything, God of the plagues, redeemer of Israel, you get the picture.

Did you look at Strong's?
synonym נפשׁ כָּל נְשָׁמָה every breathing thing Deuteronomy 20:16; Joshua 11:11,14; 1 Kings 15:29; כָּלהַֿנְּשָׁמָה Joshua 10:14; Psalm 150:6; נְשָׁמוֺת Isaiah 57:16.

OK. Fair point. No, I saw that Strong's agreed with me on Proverbs, and I figured it would be thrown out as a result so I didn't read much further.

You didn't say anything about the Hebrew word nephesh, though.
Did you give consideration to the meaning?

Sure, nefesh is in the blood, that's from leviticus, I think. From this, I think it's determined that animals have a nefesh, I'd have to check. I'm not sure it's eternal. The verses we're discussing are about the neshama of man, not the nefesh of animal and man.

 

[nPeace]

A perfectly fair question. Not really, but then per JW translation, Strong's is wrong too. So we've both brought sources which aren't super reputable on this one.

I'm not seeing that. Can you point out where JWs translation disagrees with Strong's?

I'm not sure. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Agreed. This is all about ruach. We're talking about neshama.

Yes. As I'm researching, I'm seeing plenty of verses where "spirit" doesn't fit where "breath" does fit for essentialy the same word.

For sure. As Hebrew words have more than one meaning.
Can you provide at least three of those verses?

It's combining Proverbs 13:7 and Proverbs 20:27 to understand the lamp of the LORD. 20:27 says: The neshama of man is the lamp ( per JW translation ). 13:7 says: The lamp of the righteous shines brightly, and it's implied that it is not extinguished. That's why I raised it as a possiblity, and idea which has scriptural support.

You mean Proverbs 13:9.
Proverbs 13:7 does not mention light, or lamp.
Have you given consideration to the fact that these are applied in two different ways to two different things?
You are aware that lamp and light are used in various ways, right?

Yes! Most definitely. I am so glad you brought that chapter. It also says the soul of the righteous, the soul of the wicked who becomes righteous, will surely live! If surely die is soul death, surely live is soul life.

Did you consider referring to the meanings of the Hebrew word, when considering thos verses?
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

Can it be both? I guess what the scripture brought so far is saying is that the soul is eternal IF it is righteous. This matches the Eden story, Adam and Eve would have had access to the Tree of Life had they not sinned. If so, they would have been righteous, and "surely lived".

I'm not sure. Are you referring here to Adam - the soul, or Adam's soul?
My understanding is that Adam would live forever because God would not take his life, as Adam would have been guaranteed everlasting life.
Otherwise, Adam would die.

So, it can be both if there are different rules for the righteous compared to the wicked.

So the soul would be immortal in the sense that God allows Adam eternal life. Interesting way of looking at it.

A divine spark. An itty-bitty tiny spec of holiness from the Eternal All Mighty Creator of everything, God of the plagues, redeemer of Israel, you get the picture.

Do you have references to support this, or is this just what you think?

OK. Fair point. No, I saw that Strong's agreed with me on Proverbs, and I figured it would be thrown out as a result so I didn't read much further.

Sure, nefesh is in the blood, that's from leviticus, I think. From this, I think it's determined that animals have a nefesh, I'd have to check. I'm not sure it's eternal. The verses we're discussing are about the neshama of man, not the nefesh of animal and man.

The scriptures say animals are souls - Genesis 1:21; Genesis 1:30; Genesis 2:19; Genesis 9:10-16, with the same spirit. Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Words possess denotation and connotation, both of which can mutate over time. To claim certainty about an ancient Near East usage can be more than childishly naive.

 

[Balthazzar]

In Genesis 2:7.It does not say man was given a soul.

So how do you explain this?On this website I found?

Stumper questions Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked!:

1. If the human soul IS the person, how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1Kings 17:21)?

I think the difference is in the living aspect or lack of life aspect as souls. We became living souls as opposed to sleeping souls in formation.

 

[dybmh]

I'm not seeing that. Can you point out where JWs translation disagrees with Strong's?

Sure it's at the bottom on the page you linked to. They're referencing the Brown-Driver-Briggs. Strong's says Proverbs 20:27 is "spirit of man" not "breath of man"

Here's the JW translation:

I still don't get how breath is a lamp, nor how breath searches. It just doesn't fit.

For sure. As Hebrew words have more than one meaning.
Can you provide at least three of those verses?

Actually, I can only come up with the one verse in Proverbs where "breath" won't work and "spirit/soul" fits better. Just one.

You mean Proverbs 13:9.
Proverbs 13:7 does not mention light, or lamp.
Have you given consideration to the fact that these are applied in two different ways to two different things?
You are aware that lamp and light are used in various ways, right?

Yes. Thank you 13:9. I think a comparisson can be made because both verses come from the same author, the same book, written in the same style, to the same audience. The implication that the light of the righteous is NOT extingushed seems relevent.

Did you consider referring to the meanings of the Hebrew word, when considering thos verses?
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

Certainly! Verse 20 "the nefesh dies" Verse 27 "the nefesh lives". Now. You'll need to look to the Hebrew to see this or some other translation. The JW translation is NOT consistent with its translation between verses 20 and 27. In verse 20 it's the soul that dies. But in verse 27 it's a physical life that dies. The same Hebrew words and syntax between the verses is interpretted differently.

Here's verse 20:

כ הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַֽחֹטֵ֖את הִ֣יא תָמ֑וּת בֵּ֞ן לֹֽא־יִשָּׂ֣א | בַּֽעֲו‍ֹ֣ן הָאָ֗ב וְאָב֙ לֹ֚א יִשָּׂא֙ בַּֽעֲו‍ֹ֣ן הַבֵּ֔ן צִדְקַ֚ת הַצַּדִּיק֙ עָלָ֣יו תִּֽהְיֶ֔ה וְרִשְׁעַ֥ת הָֽרָשָׁ֖ע (כתיב רָשָׁ֖ע) עָלָ֥יו תִּֽהְיֶֽה:

JW Translation: The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone

Nefesh Tamut = The soul dies.
​

Here's verse 27:

כ זוּבְשׁ֣וּב רָשָׁ֗ע מֵֽרִשְׁעָתוֹ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשָׂ֔ה וַיַּ֥עַשׂ מִשְׁפָּ֖ט וּצְדָקָ֑ה ה֖וּא אֶת־נַפְשׁ֥וֹ יְחַיֶּֽה

JW Translation: And when someone wicked turns away from the wickedness that he has committed and begins to do what is just and righteous, he will preserve his own life.

Nafsho Y'chayeh = preserve life
​

The same word nefesh in the verse about death is translated to be a soul death, but 6 verses later, the same word nefesh is translated as physical life. Not consistent.

I'm not sure. Are you referring here to Adam - the soul, or Adam's soul?
My understanding is that Adam would live forever because God would not take his life, as Adam would have been guaranteed everlasting life.
Otherwise, Adam would die.

Sorry, I was multi-tasking and rushing in my reply.

Adam, the person, the physical being the "nefesh chaya" that was created in Genesis 2:7. That's comparable to us, finite living breathing things. Had he not eaten from the forbidden tree, he would have had access to the tree of life which was not forbidden.

Further, a direct connection to Ezekiel 18. Specifically verses 9, 13, 17, 19, 21, and 28. In these verses the righeous, the wicked and the repentent are said to "surely live" or "surely die" depending on their actions. Adam was also told he would "surely die". So what does it mean to "surely die" or "surely live"?

God said on the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree he would "surely die". But he didn't die physically, he lived for approx. 1000 years. So maybe God had mercy on him and reduced the penalty. ( I like this idea ). Or "surely die" is not physical death, but spiritual death. If so, then "surely live" in Ezekiel is a spriritual life. This fits because in verse 27 Ezekiel says "the soul will live" literally.

That's the connection to Adam.

So the soul would be immortal in the sense that God allows Adam eternal life. Interesting way of looking at it.

It could be eternal. It depended on his actions.

Do you have references to support this [the soul is a divine spark], or is this just what you think?

There's plenty of sources that describe the soul this way. I didn't make it up. Most refer back to commentary from Rabbis. I wouldn't bring that to you, though, out of respect.

The best I can bring is a logical argument connected to, yet again, Proverbs 20:27, the only scripture I've got. I read it somewhere last night. But since it's a logical argument, the source shouldn't matter.

It's known that animals breath. It's known that humans breath. When God created animals they were spoken into existence. When God created man "nishmat chayim" ( whatever that means ) was breathed into him. Since animals breath, but did not receive "nishmat chayim" ( whatever that is ), logical conclusion: "nishmat chayim" must be more than just the capability to breath.

The "nishmat chayim" ( whatever that is ) was given directly from God directly to Adam. It was breathed into him which means that it came from inside God. Logical conclusion: something inside God as given to humans not to animals.

Proverbs 20:27 says "nishmat" ( whatever it is ) is a candle or a lamp inside man. Not "like" but "is". Candles or lamps give off light. Conclusion, the "nishmat" whatever it is illuminates. What gives off light? A spark, a flame, lightning, the sun, the moon, the planets, the stars, that's it at the time the proverb was written. I like spark because it's humble.

Grand conclusion, the "nishamat chayim" was given only to man, comes directly from inside God, illuninates, and it's more than breathing. It's a divine spark.

That's the best I've got.

The scriptures say animals are souls - Genesis 1:21; Genesis 1:30; Genesis 2:19; Genesis 9:10-16, with the same spirit. Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

nefesh, nefesh, nefesh, nefesh, etc... and a couple of ruachs in Ecclesiastes. None of these is neshama.

 

[nPeace]

Sure it's at the bottom on the page you linked to. They're referencing the Brown-Driver-Briggs. Strong's says Proverbs 20:27 is "spirit of man" not "breath of man"

View attachment 69218

Here's the JW translation:

View attachment 69219
I still don't get how breath is a lamp, nor how breath searches. It just doesn't fit.

So you aren't considering the meaning of the word? You are saying it does not mean breath?

Actually, I can only come up with the one verse in Proverbs where "breath" won't work and "spirit/soul" fits better. Just one.

Which verse is that... Proverbs 13:9?

Yes. Thank you 13:9. I think a comparisson can be made because both verses come from the same author, the same book, written in the same style, to the same audience. The implication that the light of the righteous is NOT extingushed seems relevent.

So writers do not make application to various things, in their book?

Certainly! Verse 20 "the nefesh dies" Verse 27 "the nefesh lives". Now. You'll need to look to the Hebrew to see this or some other translation. The JW translation is NOT consistent with its translation between verses 20 and 27. In verse 20 it's the soul that dies. But in verse 27 it's a physical life that dies. The same Hebrew words and syntax between the verses is interpretted differently.

Here's verse 20:

כ הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַֽחֹטֵ֖את הִ֣יא תָמ֑וּת בֵּ֞ן לֹֽא־יִשָּׂ֣א | בַּֽעֲו‍ֹ֣ן הָאָ֗ב וְאָב֙ לֹ֚א יִשָּׂא֙ בַּֽעֲו‍ֹ֣ן הַבֵּ֔ן צִדְקַ֚ת הַצַּדִּיק֙ עָלָ֣יו תִּֽהְיֶ֔ה וְרִשְׁעַ֥ת הָֽרָשָׁ֖ע (כתיב רָשָׁ֖ע) עָלָ֥יו תִּֽהְיֶֽה:

JW Translation: The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone

Nefesh Tamut = The soul dies.
​

Here's verse 27:

כ זוּבְשׁ֣וּב רָשָׁ֗ע מֵֽרִשְׁעָתוֹ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשָׂ֔ה וַיַּ֥עַשׂ מִשְׁפָּ֖ט וּצְדָקָ֑ה ה֖וּא אֶת־נַפְשׁ֥וֹ יְחַיֶּֽה

JW Translation: And when someone wicked turns away from the wickedness that he has committed and begins to do what is just and righteous, he will preserve his own life.

Nafsho Y'chayeh = preserve life
​

The same word nefesh in the verse about death is translated to be a soul death, but 6 verses later, the same word nefesh is translated as physical life. Not consistent.

That's consistent.
Why do you say it's not?
Are you saying these words cannot be used interchangeably?
...living being, life, self, person...

The NWT is quite an accurate translation.
I think inconsistency comes when persons try to make the soul immortal, whe it's not.

However, since you don't believe we have an immortal soul that survives our death, but rather, we, the soul, can get to live forever, that's okay.

Sorry, I was multi-tasking and rushing in my reply.

Adam, the person, the physical being the "nefesh chaya" that was created in Genesis 2:7. That's comparable to us, finite living breathing things. Had he not eaten from the forbidden tree, he would have had access to the tree of life which was not forbidden.

True.

Further, a direct connection to Ezekiel 18. Specifically verses 9, 13, 17, 19, 21, and 28. In these verses the righeous, the wicked and the repentent are said to "surely live" or "surely die" depending on their actions. Adam was also told he would "surely die". So what does it mean to "surely die" or "surely live"?

As you said.

God said on the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree he would "surely die". But he didn't die physically, he lived for approx. 1000 years. So maybe God had mercy on him and reduced the penalty. ( I like this idea ). Or "surely die" is not physical death, but spiritual death. If so, then "surely live" in Ezekiel is a spriritual life. This fits because in verse 27 Ezekiel says "the soul will live" literally.

You were going so well... until you tried to fit the whole "part of us living on after death" doctrine into the truth.
It won't work, as you have to do quite a lot of speculating, and in effect, reading or writing into the text, what is not actually there.

Tell me something.
Can this soul/spirit think, and act?
How do you fit that with Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ecclesiastes 9:10?

There's plenty of sources that describe the soul this way. I didn't make it up. Most refer back to commentary from Rabbis. I wouldn't bring that to you, though, out of respect.

The best I can bring is a logical argument connected to, yet again, Proverbs 20:27, the only scripture I've got. I read it somewhere last night. But since it's a logical argument, the source shouldn't matter.

It's known that animals breath. It's known that humans breath. When God created animals they were spoken into existence. When God created man "nishmat chayim" ( whatever that means ) was breathed into him. Since animals breath, but did not receive "nishmat chayim" ( whatever that is ), logical conclusion: "nishmat chayim" must be more than just the capability to breath.

The "nishmat chayim" ( whatever that is ) was given directly from God directly to Adam. It was breathed into him which means that it came from inside God. Logical conclusion: something inside God as given to humans not to animals.

Proverbs 20:27 says "nishmat" ( whatever it is ) is a candle or a lamp inside man. Not "like" but "is". Candles or lamps give off light. Conclusion, the "nishmat" whatever it is illuminates. What gives off light? A spark, a flame, lightning, the sun, the moon, the planets, the stars, that's it at the time the proverb was written. I like spark because it's humble.

Grand conclusion, the "nishamat chayim" was given only to man, comes directly from inside God, illuninates, and it's more than breathing. It's a divine spark.

That's the best I've got.

nefesh, nefesh, nefesh, nefesh, etc... and a couple of ruachs in Ecclesiastes. None of these is neshama.

I don't think you want me to try to convince you differently.

 

[dybmh]

So you aren't considering the meaning of the word? You are saying it does not mean breath?

As you said, the same word can have two or more meanings. I'm saying yes, it appears to mean breath in many places. But it can't be exclusively breath, Proverbs 20:27, and animals can breath without it. That's it, 2 reasons.

If I look it up, the word is listed as spirit or soul, not as the first definition, but as an alternative definition. So yes, I am considering the definition.

Which verse is that... Proverbs 13:9?

No Proverbs 20:27, JW translation is "The breath of man is the lamp of Jehovah". It can't be breath. Breath is not at all like a candle or a lamp, there is very little in common there. It's not even poetic. Then the verse continues: "Searching through his innerost being". How does breath "search"? I've asked this repeatedly. Still no answer.

So writers do not make application to various things, in their book?

King Solomon is describing the lamp of Jehovah, and the lamp of the righteous / wicked. That's the connection. There's something in common between these two ideas even without the squabble on translation.

That's consistent.
Why do you say it's not?
Are you saying these words cannot be used interchangeably?
...living being, life, self, person...

Because of the context of the chapter, and the way the words are written, the two consequences are inverses / opposites of one another.

If the one phrasing is "soul death", then the other very similar phrasing would be "soul life".

The whole chapter is comparing he wicked to the righteous as opposites. The repetition is a tiny bit tedious, but at least it's precise. This isn't allusion and metaphor. It's straight-up law directly from Jehovah.

The NWT is quite an accurate translation.
I think inconsistency comes when persons try to make the soul immortal, whe it's not.

It's interesting to see the choices made compared to the others.

True

As you said.

You were going so well... until you tried to fit the whole "part of us living on after death" doctrine into the truth.

It won't work, as you have to do quite a lot of speculating, and in effect, reading or writing into the text, what is not actually there.

I agree it's not as strongly supported as I had thought. Of course I trust the opinions of Rabbis over many centuries who speculated about this. I'm happy to have found a thread connecting it to the text.

Can this soul/spirit think, and act?
How do you fit that with Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ecclesiastes 9:10?

King Solomon is depressed.
Jehovah said I can "surely live" if I return? I'm back to happy!
That's how I fit it. Jehovah trumps King Solomon.

I don't think you want me to try to convince you differently.

This is a fact finding mission. I'm on the hunt!

 

[nPeace]

As you said, the same word can have two or more meanings. I'm saying yes, it appears to mean breath in many places. But it can't be exclusively breath, Proverbs 20:27, and animals can breath without it. That's it, 2 reasons.

I agree, it's not one meaning exclusively. Hence we consider the context.
So, it may be best to see if we are understanding the word in the right way, so that the context helps us get the correct understanding of the text.

Here, you can see, a number of different translations.
Isaiah 57:16
New International Version
...the very people (neshamah) I have created.

New Living Translation
...all the souls (neshamah) I have made.

English Standard Version
...and the breath of life (neshamah) that I made.

Berean Standard Bible
...with the breath (neshamah) of those I have made.

New World Translation (NWT)
...Even the breathing creatures (neshamah) that I have made.

Are there any you don't agree with?

If I look it up, the word is listed as spirit or soul, not as the first definition, but as an alternative definition. So yes, I am considering the definition.

No Proverbs 20:27, JW translation is "The breath of man is the lamp of Jehovah". It can't be breath. Breath is not at all like a candle or a lamp, there is very little in common there. It's not even poetic. Then the verse continues: "Searching through his innerost being". How does breath "search"? I've asked this repeatedly. Still no answer.

Sorry. Answer's coming.
Here, we have the different translations on Proverbs 20:27

New International Version
The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one’s inmost being.

English Standard Version
The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all his innermost parts.

New American Standard Bible
The spirit of a person is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.

Christian Standard Bible
The LORD’s lamp sheds light on a person’s life, searching the innermost parts.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The soul of the children of men is the lamp of LORD JEHOVAH, and it searches all the inner rooms of the belly.

Contemporary English Version
Our inner thoughts are a lamp from the LORD, and they search our hearts.

International Standard Version
A person's spirit is the lamp of the LORD; it searches throughout one's innermost being.

Literal Standard Version
The breath of man [is] a lamp of YHWH, Searching all the inner parts of the heart.

Young's Literal Translation
The breath of man is a lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the inner parts of the heart.

New World Translation (NWT)
The breath of a man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching through his innermost being.


Considering all these translations, I think we can understand the context.
The spirit of man / the breath of man - what man gives out, allows Jehovah to search out his innermost being.
In other words, your attitude - your spirit... how you say what you say, and do what you do, is like a lamp Jehovah uses to search out the innermost person - the inner man.

Compare Matthew 15:19
For example, out of the heart come wicked reasonings: murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

See...
*** it-2 p. 196 Lamp ***
According to Proverbs 20:27, “the breath of earthling man is the lamp of Jehovah, carefully searching all the innermost parts of the belly.” By what a person “breathes out,” or gives vent to, whether good or bad expressions, he reveals, or sheds light on, his personality or inmost self.—Compare Ac 9:1.

*** w63 8/15 p. 502 Understanding What the Spirit Is ***
The Hebrew word for spirit is ruʹahh and the Greek word is pneuʹma. Some Bible translations render the Hebrew word neshamahʹ as spirit at Job 26:4 and Proverbs 20:27, but more careful translations use the word “breath” here rather than spirit. This word neshamahʹ is the one that is used at Genesis 2:7 for the vital breath that was put into Adam at the time of his creation. Its use here indicates that what God blew into the nostrils of Adam was literal breath. However, the active life force that God gave him, causing him to have a conscious existence, was his ruʹahh or spirit. This active life force is not specifically mentioned at Genesis 2:7, but it is referred to elsewhere.—Gen. 6:17; 7:22; Eccl. 12:7.

King Solomon is describing the lamp of Jehovah, and the lamp of the righteous / wicked. That's the connection. There's something in common between these two ideas even without the squabble on translation.

Looks like two different lamps for two different purposes... applied in two different ways.

Because of the context of the chapter, and the way the words are written, the two consequences are inverses / opposites of one another.

If the one phrasing is "soul death", then the other very similar phrasing would be "soul life".

The whole chapter is comparing he wicked to the righteous as opposites. The repetition is a tiny bit tedious, but at least it's precise. This isn't allusion and metaphor. It's straight-up law directly from Jehovah.

It's interesting to see the choices made compared to the others.

See here. Then see here.
Same Hebrew word. Different word usage. Both correct meaning. One is person. The other is life.
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
On another occasion, the context may render the usage as desire, or emotion, or living being, etc.

I agree it's not as strongly supported as I had thought. Of course I trust the opinions of Rabbis over many centuries who speculated about this. I'm happy to have found a thread connecting it to the text.

Well, if you trust their ideas, would anyone pointing out anything the Bible has to offer that's different, change that?

King Solomon is depressed.
Jehovah said I can "surely live" if I return? I'm back to happy!
That's how I fit it. Jehovah trumps King Solomon.

See what I mean?
It's not only the Rabbis. You probably trust yourself also. Right?

You did not answer the question though, did you.?
Speaking of the dead. Not the living. Can this soul/spirit think, and act... when you die?
How do you fit that with Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ecclesiastes 9:10?

This is a fact finding mission. I'm on the hunt!

That sounds good.
...but how can that be, if you trust the Rabbis speculation, and your interpretation?

Let me test that out. Try this, then let's hear your thoughts.

 

[rational experiences]

Heavens type. Stretched evaporated water oxygenated. Owning living microbes in it.

We are mainly a bio water body ourselves.

Heavens waters heats cools daily by conditions ground evaporation and mass water pressure changes from above.

That affects what we describe as given cellular water activity.

Like O GOD above heavens cooling around or skin body the same small reaction occurs keeping biology vital. Circulating oxygenating spin G spiral of O cells.

You cannot describe it as a thinking human being human having a humans experience. As you are living it.

Why we say the soul surrounds us also.

It cannot be described abstract to a human other than animal bio life cells are affected by the same heavenly conditions above us and around us.