A Question for Atheists..

[Geeky Gourds]

Peace be upon you everybody!

I have seen a lot of atheists here on the forums, but honestly I expected to see believer not atheists; as this site is called "religious forums", but anyway I've had a really interesting question for those who don't believe in after life and think that Its all fake, and as my communist friend once said (Karl Marx) "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

- Let's all assume that this is correct.
that after life is all fake and atheists were correct after all.. nature created the universe, planets, sun, human beings, animals, birds, Everything..but then would it really matter for believers?
20 minutes is the average time that a believer "wastes" everyday to pray, and worship his/her God, a very humble number that never compares to the hours that we all admit to waste on social media and random stuff, if believers are wrong.. Are they sincerely going to be regretful for those "wasted" minutes everyday?
I don't think so.

- Now, Lets assume the opposite.. that after life was true and that there is a single God who created this whole universe, what are atheists going to say then? What are atheists going to say when Heaven and Hell are revealed? and that only those who believed in God will go to heaven and others will not.

To any atheist reading this, I know that pride and dignity are your divine principles, but they won't do anything for you if believers were correct, they won't have any value if you find out that afterlife was true, consider both situations to happen, personally as a believer myself I would never feel ashamed if my beliefs were incorrect, I would never feel ashamed because I would just die and that's it. No afterlife!

For you atheists If believers were to be correct about Heaven, Hell, Afterlife, God, What would you do/say then?

A "believer" who's "wasted time" only amounting to 20 minuets per day is, in my opinion, not a true believer. When I was a Christian I certainly spent more than 20 minuets per day on what I believed.

I spent a good portion of myself on something that now I believe stole part of my life (or I willingly gave it, was brainwashed, whatever).

When I found out how to study, really study, the bible it was great to have the biblical knowledge. Then after a while I wanted answers to the contractions I found, and I had to further investigate, which eventually led to liberation of mind and being my true self.

When I started my investigation, it was not out of rebellion, but it was done to find the truth. I wanted to find out why certain biblical passages said these things. My studies took me to places I did not intend on.

I wish I would have investigated earlier.

I see things much differently now. How can researching and validating one's religion/holy books be condemned? If God knows our thoughts and one has questions but does not investigate how can that be sincere worship?

 

[stvdv]

Hello Geeky Gourds,
Welcome to RF and thank you for sharing your story. Quite a story, quite a few challenges you had in your life; congratulations.

A "believer" who's "wasted time" only amounting to 20 minuets per day is, in my opinion, not a true believer.

I would think, the one who decides/knows this, that ... is ... well .... God

Are you the real deal? (okay, I could not (didn't want to) control myself)

Note: You were a Christian. I know that all the Christians I met, seem to know how others should "believe" to be a "true believer" in God's Eyes. But you discontinued Christianity I read, so I am surprised you still think this way. So, I guess you forgot to drop this, IMO, "unpleasant habit", right?

I see things much differently now. How can researching and validating one's religion/holy books be condemned? If God knows our thoughts and one has questions but does not investigate how can that be sincere worship?

I agree 100% with this. Makes sense to me. I can find quite a few other good reasons that confirm this, and I am surprised some don't see it this way

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

"Well... if believers are wrong, there will be no "time" to worry about anything wasted throughout life." Exactly that actually further proves my point.

So, please tell me why you have statements like this in your OP:

Are they sincerely going to be regretful for those "wasted" minutes everyday?

I took this as you assuming that, if there is no afterlife, that you will somehow still have some time or wherewithal to "regret" something. Perhaps you were just trying to convey the idea that there is no possibility of even being regretful, but then why use the word "sincerely" as a qualifier? What difference would it make if it was "sincere?" We're talking about something that WOULDN'T EVEN BE HAPPENING. Do you at least see the reason I was confused?

I'm absolutely Ok with thinking IN YOUR way and from YOUR perspective, but why don't you think in believers' perspective too?

I have, hence the reason I answered the question in your OP as the last part of my post. I don't think you liked the answer... because you seem to have completely ignored it. Typical, honestly.

"A popular way to try and get people to contemplate it is to ask them to picture what it was like before they were born."

it's like asking about what you contemplate when you're sleeping... this is irrelevant to this whole debate, because (if God exsists) you shouldn't contemplate anything when you're not born yet because you didn't exist yet for god to judge you for what you haven't done yet!

You seem to be assuming I brought this up for a completely different reason. All I was doing was trying to get you to wrap your mind around "oblivion," because your words in the OP (as described already above) had me thinking you were framing the situation incorrectly and making bad assumptions, and didn't understand what oblivion actually means. This had nothing to do with your question about what I would do/think if some version of some theists' stories ended up being reality.

 

[Geeky Gourds]

Hello Geeky Gourds,
Welcome to RF and thank you for sharing your story. Quite a story, quite a few challenges you had in your life; congratulations.


I would think, the one who decides/knows this, that ... is ... well .... God

Are you the real deal? (okay, I could not (didn't want to) control myself)

Note: You were a Christian. I know that all the Christians I met, seem to know how others should "believe" to be a "true believer" in God's Eyes. But you discontinued Christianity I read, so I am surprised you still think this way. So, I guess you forgot to drop this, IMO, "unpleasant habit", right?


I agree 100% with this. Makes sense to me. I can find quite a few other good reasons that confirm this, and I am surprised some don't see it this way

Thank you.

Note: I have to think about this one. Well, I suppose me saying that one has to spend more than 20 minuets per day on their beliefs to be a true believer, is rather, judgmental. Yes, God only knows. I guess being a Christian, or believer in any religion, or in any philosophy is "living" it, regardless of how much time is spent outwardly on specific "duties", maybe someone has to work 80 hours a week to put food on the table, and limited prayer time is all they have. I should add that what I wanted to get across in response to the original poster saying that all the believer has lost is 20 minuets per day, when much more is lost. Such as who you are in life. Not just 20 minuets in prayer.

 

[stvdv]

Well, I suppose me saying that one has to spend more than 20 minuets per day on their beliefs to be a true believer, is rather, judgmental. Yes, God only knows

I also believe that "only God knows such things". IF a human says he knows THEN it falls even under blasphemy (IMO), sitting on God's chair. But because you phrased it as your opinion, there was nothing wrong with how/what you said.

maybe someone has to work 80 hours a week to put food on the table, and limited prayer time is all they have

This reminds me of my Master who used to say "God knows you need to work to put food on the table, so it's sufficient if you offer your work to God before you start and thank Him when returning home. And for God's sake, don't pray while driving, better keep your eyes on the road and NOT closed".

In India, where I was, I was surprised to see taxi drivers do a small prayer everytime before starting to drive. But after seeing how crazy they drive over in India, I quickly understood, that it takes a lot of faith to dare to drive in India; I rather take a taxi there

what I wanted to get across in response to the original poster saying that all the believer has lost is 20 minuets per day, when much more is lost. Such as who you are in life. Not just 20 minuets in prayer.

I did read it in your story, but seeing it summarized, makes it even more clear. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have seen many lose themselves in name of Religion. From personal experience I can say that I lost myself, but that was not due to religion. My father was very dominant, and belittled me a lot. It took me decades to recover from that. The Teachings of my Master helped me, and I am forever grateful to Him. So, I think that humans are prone to hurting others, irrespective of (non)faith.

For me Religion/Life is simple, and my Scripture can be summarized in 4 words "Hurt Never, Help Ever".

 

[YoursTrue]

Peace be upon you everybody!

I have seen a lot of atheists here on the forums, but honestly I expected to see believer not atheists; as this site is called "religious forums", but anyway I've had a really interesting question for those who don't believe in after life and think that Its all fake, and as my communist friend once said (Karl Marx) "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

- Let's all assume that this is correct.
that after life is all fake and atheists were correct after all.. nature created the universe, planets, sun, human beings, animals, birds, Everything..but then would it really matter for believers?
20 minutes is the average time that a believer "wastes" everyday to pray, and worship his/her God, a very humble number that never compares to the hours that we all admit to waste on social media and random stuff, if believers are wrong.. Are they sincerely going to be regretful for those "wasted" minutes everyday?
I don't think so.

- Now, Lets assume the opposite.. that after life was true and that there is a single God who created this whole universe, what are atheists going to say then? What are atheists going to say when Heaven and Hell are revealed? and that only those who believed in God will go to heaven and others will not.

To any atheist reading this, I know that pride and dignity are your divine principles, but they won't do anything for you if believers were correct, they won't have any value if you find out that afterlife was true, consider both situations to happen, personally as a believer myself I would never feel ashamed if my beliefs were incorrect, I would never feel ashamed because I would just die and that's it. No afterlife!

For you atheists If believers were to be correct about Heaven, Hell, Afterlife, God, What would you do/say then?

Yes but there are a lot of varied opinions about what's true and what's not. About those things.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'd probably say that it was unexpected and that I look forward to meeting Einstein, Gandhi, Socrates, Tutenkhamen etc in hell.

Lol in hell. I look forward to meeting them on the earth in life. Not hell. Lol .

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Trust me on this.

If you dont get the "unicorn" and/or "Spaghetti Monster" argument, I will pay you a million dollars. It is inevitable. It is the religious apologetic tactics taught to them by their high priests, a mantra of their own opium.

Looks as if you owe the dude a million dollars.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Until you study it, you would not know "if", "When", or "never".

Studying all religions would take multiple lifetimes.
So I'ld necessarily have to arbitrarily pick and choose a couple and be left wondering if the "true" religion isn't among those I didn't pick.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I would be surprised to see those "flying" around here. I think the OP has a few nice hypothetical questions. They seem simple to answer. To not answer the questions asked, but instead to reply with another question makes no sense here, I think. Unless they can't answer these simple questions, then some resort to reply with a question.

The OP's questions and argument, amounts to nothing more or less then Pascal's Wager.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How about instead of thinking about it this way, ask yourself.. why would God equalise someone who believed in him with someone who cursed and disrespected him, why would you equalise someone who respects you with someone who doesn't?

Benevolence?

Having said that..... an atheist would not be "cursing and disrespecting" a god, since an atheist doesn't believe there are any gods to "curse and disrespect".

Do you "curse and disrespect" Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker?
Or do you rather just regard them as fictional characters in a fictional story?

It makes no sense.
You acknowledge atheists don't believe in gods, but then talk about them as if they do believe in gods.

I can't disrespect, or respect for that matter, those things I don't even consider to be real.
Instead, I'm indifferent to those things I don't consider real.

I can look at Star Wars and make a moral judgement about the character portrayed as Darth Vader in context of said story, sure. But it would make zero sense to say "I hate Darth Vader".

 

[stvdv]

The OP's questions and argument, amounts to nothing more or less then Pascal's Wager.

Yes, that is Pascal's Wager. I see nothing wrong with it; even a smart one ... until proven wrong keep an open mind, does make sense to me

Pascals wager is valid IF the following conditions are met: There is only one possible god that can or can't exist. Belief is a choice. You loose nothing by believing in god, but can gain everything by doing so

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, that is Pascal's Wager. I see nothing wrong with it; even a smart one ... until proven wrong keep an open mind, does make sense to me

Pascal's Wager is infamous for being fundamentally fallacious.

And how it is fallacious is described neatly in the quote you provide:

- There is only one possible god that can or can't exist: this is wrong. Thousands of gods are claimed and believed in by mankind. None is "more possible" then any other, as all share the same type of (bad) evidence.

- Belief is a choice: it isn't.

 

[danieldemol]

Looks as if you owe the dude a million dollars.

If I were @Loaai I'd sue for it

 

[stvdv]

And how it is fallacious is described neatly in the quote you provide:

Hence I highlighted in pink the part I found valuable

There is only one possible god that can or can't exist: this is wrong

I respect your belief. Advaita adherents might disagree with you

Thousands of gods are claimed and believed in by mankind

When people "claim Gods in which they believe" does not make it true (even the word "believed in" indicates it's not fact)

Belief is a choice: it isn't.

Again, I respect your belief. IMO "to believe is a choice" ... "to know is not a choice"

 

[HonestJoe]

Hence I highlighted in pink the part I found valuable

That's a part which is flawed though. For example, the OP is Muslim so from their point of view, "just believing in god" wouldn't be sufficient to "win" Pascals Wager, you'd have to follow the rules and laws of the Muslim faith. From a Christian point of view "just believing in god" isn't necessarily sufficient either, and there will be a different (and potentially contradictory) set of rules to follow.

Basically, it's not the binary question of "God or not" that most proponents suggest (or would like to believe). There are countless incompatible possibilities for what a god might expect of us and so to "win" Pascals Wager, you'd have to pick exactly the right one.

 

[stvdv]

That's a part which is flawed though. For example, the OP is Muslim so from their point of view, "just believing in god" wouldn't be sufficient to "win" Pascals Wager, you'd have to follow the rules and laws of the Muslim faith. From a Christian point of view "just believing in god" isn't necessarily sufficient either, and there will be a different (and potentially contradictory) set of rules to follow.

Basically, it's not the binary question of "God or not" that most proponents suggest (or would like to believe). There are countless incompatible possibilities for what a god might expect of us and so to "win" Pascals Wager, you'd have to pick exactly the right one.

I am not interested in winning nor interested in the exact Pascal Wager. I only use the parts that I can use to know God/Truth

The yeast of PW makes sense "You loose nothing by believing in god, but can gain everything by doing so"
Or to put it differently "until proven wrong keep an open mind, does make sense to me"
@stvdvRF

 

[stvdv]

Studying all religions would take multiple lifetimes.
So I'ld necessarily have to arbitrarily pick and choose a couple and be left wondering if the "true" religion isn't among those I didn't pick.

IMO:

That is true, but that problem can be solved easily

Spirituality is not about "true religion". Spirituality is about "truth"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

IMO:

That is true, but that problem can be solved easily

Spirituality is not about "true religion". Spirituality is about "truth"

How is that a solution in how to determine which religion is the right religion - if any of them is right in the first place? They can all be false off course. And considering they all make the same type of claims (extra-ordinary supernatural things) based on the same type of evidence (dreams, visions, revelations, hearsay), the most likely outcome is that they indeed are all wrong.

But anyhow, what you suggest doesn't bring us any closer whatsoever to determining which religion, if any, is correct.
In fact, you don't even seem to suggest anything. It's vague blablabla with no real content.

What exactly do you suggest people should study to determine what the true religion is, if any such religion exists?

 

[stvdv]

What exactly do you suggest people should study to determine what the true religion is, if any such religion exists?

IMO:

There is not something like "True (non) Faith"
Just pick any (non) Faith that agrees best with you (for you Atheism)
Gradual purify body, mind, emotions and gradual wisdom will be revealed

Note: Wisdom is not acquired by reading/studying (like knowledge), but by purification