A Question for Atheists..

[stvdv]

Goodbye

Thanks. And all the best to you too.

 

[firedragon]

Peace be upon you everybody!

I have seen a lot of atheists here on the forums, but honestly I expected to see believer not atheists; as this site is called "religious forums", but anyway I've had a really interesting question for those who don't believe in after life and think that Its all fake, and as my communist friend once said (Karl Marx) "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

- Let's all assume that this is correct.
that after life is all fake and atheists were correct after all.. nature created the universe, planets, sun, human beings, animals, birds, Everything..but then would it really matter for believers?
20 minutes is the average time that a believer "wastes" everyday to pray, and worship his/her God, a very humble number that never compares to the hours that we all admit to waste on social media and random stuff, if believers are wrong.. Are they sincerely going to be regretful for those "wasted" minutes everyday?
I don't think so.

- Now, Lets assume the opposite.. that after life was true and that there is a single God who created this whole universe, what are atheists going to say then? What are atheists going to say when Heaven and Hell are revealed? and that only those who believed in God will go to heaven and others will not.

To any atheist reading this, I know that pride and dignity are your divine principles, but they won't do anything for you if believers were correct, they won't have any value if you find out that afterlife was true, consider both situations to happen, personally as a believer myself I would never feel ashamed if my beliefs were incorrect, I would never feel ashamed because I would just die and that's it. No afterlife!

For you atheists If believers were to be correct about Heaven, Hell, Afterlife, God, What would you do/say then?

Trust me on this.

If you dont get the "unicorn" and/or "Spaghetti Monster" argument, I will pay you a million dollars. It is inevitable. It is the religious apologetic tactics taught to them by their high priests, a mantra of their own opium.

 

[firedragon]

When would I find out that a particular religion is correct?

Until you study it, you would not know "if", "When", or "never".

 

[Revoltingest]

Until you study it, you would not know "if", "When", or "never".

What is there to study?
Each of the religions that tells me it's the singular true one?
Or the ones that tell me several are true?

 

[firedragon]

What is there to study?
Each of the religions that tells me it's the singular true one?
Or the ones that tell me several are true?

There is much to study. Its okay if you never want to study this, that or the other. But until you do, you can never ask or know "if", "When", or "never".

 

[stvdv]

Trust me on this.

If you dont get the "unicorn" and/or "Spaghetti Monster" argument, I will pay you a million dollars. It is inevitable. It is the religious apologetic tactics taught to them by their high priests, a mantra of their own opium.

I would be surprised to see those "flying" around here. I think the OP has a few nice hypothetical questions. They seem simple to answer. To not answer the questions asked, but instead to reply with another question makes no sense here, I think. Unless they can't answer these simple questions, then some resort to reply with a question.

 

[Loaai]

Well... if believers are wrong, there will be no "time" to worry about anything wasted throughout life. So many believers talk as if there is an afterlife EVEN WHEN ASSUMING THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE! It is hilarious. Like you just can't even grasp the idea of oblivion. There is no you. There is nothing to "be." There is no perceiving. There is no "regret." Nothing. A popular way to try and get people to contemplate it is to ask them to picture what it was like before they were born. That's what it would be like. It isn't even "like" anything. There is no "anything," there is no "comparing." Get it?

I would say to "God" or "The Judge":
"Well... you at least understand why I didn't believe, right? I mean... RIGHT??!!?"

"Well... if believers are wrong, there will be no "time" to worry about anything wasted throughout life." Exactly that actually further proves my point.

"It is hilarious. Like you just can't even grasp the idea of oblivion."
I'm absolutely Ok with thinking IN YOUR way and from YOUR perspective, but why don't you think in believers' perspective too?

"A popular way to try and get people to contemplate it is to ask them to picture what it was like before they were born."

it's like asking about what you contemplate when you're sleeping... this is irrelevant to this whole debate, because (if God exsists) you shouldn't contemplate anything when you're not born yet because you didn't exist yet for god to judge you for what you haven't done yet!

 

[blü 2]

"Well... if believers are wrong, there will be no "time" to worry about anything wasted throughout life." Exactly that actually further proves my point.

"It is hilarious. Like you just can't even grasp the idea of oblivion."
I'm absolutely Ok with thinking IN YOUR way and from YOUR perspective, but why don't you think in believers' perspective too?

"A popular way to try and get people to contemplate it is to ask them to picture what it was like before they were born."

it's like asking about what you contemplate when you're sleeping... this is irrelevant to this whole debate, because (if God exsists) you shouldn't contemplate anything when you're not born yet because you didn't exist yet for god to judge you for what you haven't done yet!

Back in post #26, I expressed the view that "any God who sent postmortal souls to torment instead of Soul Hospital is a morally bankrupt psychopath."

Do you share that view, or is your preference for eternal torment?

 

[Stevicus]

Peace be upon you everybody!

I have seen a lot of atheists here on the forums, but honestly I expected to see believer not atheists; as this site is called "religious forums", but anyway I've had a really interesting question for those who don't believe in after life and think that Its all fake, and as my communist friend once said (Karl Marx) "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

- Let's all assume that this is correct.
that after life is all fake and atheists were correct after all.. nature created the universe, planets, sun, human beings, animals, birds, Everything..but then would it really matter for believers?
20 minutes is the average time that a believer "wastes" everyday to pray, and worship his/her God, a very humble number that never compares to the hours that we all admit to waste on social media and random stuff, if believers are wrong.. Are they sincerely going to be regretful for those "wasted" minutes everyday?
I don't think so.

- Now, Lets assume the opposite.. that after life was true and that there is a single God who created this whole universe, what are atheists going to say then? What are atheists going to say when Heaven and Hell are revealed? and that only those who believed in God will go to heaven and others will not.

To any atheist reading this, I know that pride and dignity are your divine principles, but they won't do anything for you if believers were correct, they won't have any value if you find out that afterlife was true, consider both situations to happen, personally as a believer myself I would never feel ashamed if my beliefs were incorrect, I would never feel ashamed because I would just die and that's it. No afterlife!

For you atheists If believers were to be correct about Heaven, Hell, Afterlife, God, What would you do/say then?

The way I look at it is that I don't know who or what "God" actually is. Even if there is a God, that doesn't automatically mean that the "God" which is referred to in scriptures is the actual "God" that created the universe - or if it's a single being or multiple beings or just some powerful sentient energy force.

As an agnostic, I think "I don't know" is the most honest position to take. If I prayed and pretended to worship a god just to get along, then I would be lying. So, if there is a God and I am to be judged in the Afterlife, then at least I can say I was just being honest.

 

[Loaai]

Back in post #26, I expressed the view that "any God who sent postmortal souls to torment instead of Soul Hospital is a morally bankrupt psychopath."

Do you share that view, or is your preference for eternal torment?

How about instead of thinking about it this way, ask yourself.. why would God equalise someone who believed in him with someone who cursed and disrespected him, why would you equalise someone who respects you with someone who doesn't?

 

[stvdv]

The way I look at it is that I don't know who or what "God" actually is. Even if there is a God, that doesn't automatically mean that the "God" which is referred to in scriptures is the actual "God" that created the universe - or if it's a single being or multiple beings or just some powerful sentient energy force.

As an agnostic, I think "I don't know" is the most honest position to take. If I prayed and pretended to worship a god just to get along, then I would be lying. So, if there is a God and I am to be judged in the Afterlife, then at least I can say I was just being honest.

IMO:

This is a PERFECT REPLY.
And God being defined as "unconditional Love" would indeed never judge you for having this position. Speaking/being truthful is all what is needed.

 

[blü 2]

How about instead of thinking about it this way, ask yourself.. why would God equalise someone who believed in him with someone who cursed and disrespected him, why would you equalise someone who respects you with someone who doesn't?

The Judge is above justice, because the judge understands ─ has always understood ─ everything about the soul in the dock, not least the factors that caused the soul to act as it did on earth ─ the susceptibilities it was born with, the greater or lesser native powers of self-control and delayed gratification, the moral environment of its upbringing, the miswirings of its brain; and if the judge is fanatically and pointlessly vengeful, the judge will dispatch the errant soul to torment; whereas if the judge actually understands the soul's problem, then that problem is what the judge will want to fix ─ and therefore instead of torment, the judge will send the soul to the Soul Hospital.

Which is what I'd do were I the judge. The alternative is torment for its own sake, utterly pointless sadism, gratuitous and petty nastiness, God as Bronze Age Monster rather than loving parent.

Which course would you take in the judge's place?

 

[stvdv]

The Judge is above justice, because the judge understands ─ has always understood ─ everything about the soul in the dock, not least the factors that caused the soul to act as it did on earth ─ the susceptibilities it was born with, the greater or lesser native powers of self-control and delayed gratification, the moral environment of its upbringing, the miswirings of its brain; and if the judge is fanatically and pointlessly vengeful, the judge will dispatch the errant soul to torment; whereas if the judge actually understands the soul's problem, then that problem is what the judge will want to fix ─ and therefore instead of torment, the judge will send the soul to the Soul Hospital.

Which is what I'd do were I the judge. The alternative is torment for its own sake, utterly pointless sadism, gratuitous and petty nastiness, God as Bronze Age Monster rather than loving parent.
Which course would you take in the judge's place?

This is the Truth, as given by Sai Baba and many Saints and Seers. Unconditional Love is attributed to God, and Omniscience, hence God will never judge (us).

 

[stvdv]

I would never feel ashamed if my beliefs were incorrect, I would never feel ashamed because I would just die and that's it. No afterlife!

Perfection is attributed to God, hence His Creation MUST be perfect, hence God will never judge His Creation, hence God never judges humans

 

[Subduction Zone]

Trust me on this.

If you dont get the "unicorn" and/or "Spaghetti Monster" argument, I will pay you a million dollars. It is inevitable. It is the religious apologetic tactics taught to them by their high priests, a mantra of their own opium.

Not really a mantra. Just a reaction to very poor arguments. One poor argument deserves another. One could also say one made up god deserves another.

 

[Loaai]

The Judge is above justice, because the judge understands ─ has always understood ─ everything about the soul in the dock, not least the factors that caused the soul to act as it did on earth ─ the susceptibilities it was born with, the greater or lesser native powers of self-control and delayed gratification, the moral environment of its upbringing, the miswirings of its brain; and if the judge is fanatically and pointlessly vengeful, the judge will dispatch the errant soul to torment; whereas if the judge actually understands the soul's problem, then that problem is what the judge will want to fix ─ and therefore instead of torment, the judge will send the soul to the Soul Hospital.

Which is what I'd do were I the judge. The alternative is torment for its own sake, utterly pointless sadism, gratuitous and petty nastiness, God as Bronze Age Monster rather than loving parent.

Which course would you take in the judge's place?

'Which is what I'd do were I the judge.'

You are not. And right here exists the barrier between believers and atheists.. For a Believer there are certain wisdoms for everything God has created/said in his holy books, and these wisdoms are not debatable, because if God is actually a God he would never be wrong, He is the one who defines what's correct and what's not, because he's the only one that knows every single detail and every secret of this whole universe, you don't.. I don't and nobody will ever be even close to him, so you can't just apply 'common sense' to the divine world.

If God said that he would torture any non-believer, then that would be for a very obvious reason..

let's imagine what would happen if he said that he wouldn't torture anyone and that everybody would go directly to heaven.. At this point do you genuinely think that anybody would pray a single prayer for him? would anybody even think about him? Personally I would just commit suicide just like many others!
This whole universe is simply an exam for the human kind and since everybody is different not everybody would believe and pass and that's the main point of an exam, there are people that are SUPPOSED to fail the exam.
You never love to be punished from your parents but THEY know it's better to punish a kid than to spoil him and even though they hate to punish they have to. God already knows that if he didn't mention any torturing nobody would worship or even care about him, he also hates to punish but he has to!
If your parents gave you whatever you want when you were a kid and didn't DIRECT you to the correct path then at this point they would have failed to raise you, just as many parents fail to raise their children, but it's not your parents now who are raising you, it's the universe's creator, he hopes that you would believe in him, he hopes that you realise the correct path, but if you don't he would have to punish you, he can't let you cheat because the only time that you would definitely believe in him is when you see him!

When there are divine miracles that exist till now in our everyday life (Qurann, Holy books, Etc).. logic says there is something much bigger, this debate will never be over, it shouldn't! It's an exam, but at the end of the day I would rather spend some minutes everyday worshipping God than rotting in hell if that's God's alternative. Even Judges themselves have to be cruel for CERTAIN people and sentence them to prison, hard work or even death for what they did, and even though you didn't do any criminal acts in our regular world, you have failed your most important test and denied the existence of your creator.

I know you don't believe in any of that, but I still want an answer for the very first question:

[IF BELIEVERS WERE TO BE CORRECT ABOUT THE AFTERLIFE] What would you say then?

 

[Loaai]

Perfection is attributed to God, hence His Creation MUST be perfect, hence God will never judge His Creation, hence God never judges humans

God is perfect, Humans are not, They are not supposed to, and God created them NOT to be perfect, hence God has to judge each one of them, hence God ALWAYS judges.

 

[blü 2]

'Which is what I'd do were I the judge.'

Yes. I have personal standards, and I try to employ them in my judgment. Don't you?

You are not. And right here exists the barrier between believers and atheists.. For a Believer there are certain wisdoms for everything God has created/said in his holy books, and these wisdoms are not debatable, because if God is actually a God he would never be wrong,

I find it an abandonment of responsibility to declare that some or other view expressed in a book can be taken to be absolute.

He is the one who defines what's correct and what's not, because he's the only one that knows every single detail and every secret of this whole universe, you don't.. I don't and nobody will ever be even close to him, so you can't just apply 'common sense' to the divine world.

What's the point of declaring that God has all that knowledge if we don't have access to it? It may as well be a lie for all the good it does.

If God said that he would torture any non-believer, then that would be for a very obvious reason.

Yes, that he's a sadist or an amoral authoritarian. I endeavor to be neither. Don't you?

let's imagine what would happen if he said that he wouldn't torture anyone and that everybody would go directly to heaven.. At this point do you genuinely think that anybody would pray a single prayer for him? would anybody even think about him? Personally I would just commit suicide just like many others!

Goodness me! That's a shocking picture of a god, who has to torture people to substitute fear for respect. Should we model our governments on such a principle because someone alleges God does?

This whole universe is simply an exam for the human kind and since everybody is different not everybody would believe and pass and that's the main point of an exam, there are people that are SUPPOSED to fail the exam.

Ah, there's the difference right there. I have respect for my fellow humans, rather than send them into traps.

You never love to be punished from your parents but THEY know it's better to punish a kid than to spoil him and even though they hate to punish they have to.

We drew lines, yes, but we never hit any of our children, merely reproved, on not very many occasions restricted, but largely explained. Seems to have worked pretty well.

God already knows that if he didn't mention any torturing nobody would worship or even care about him, he also hates to punish but he has to!

It never occurred to us to ask our kids to worship us. What benefit does worship bring the worshiped one, do you say?

but it's not your parents now who are raising you, it's the universe's creator, he hopes that you would believe in him

[He] doesn't act like [he] wants anyone to believe [he] exists. [He] never appears, never says, never does, even when terrible things happen. In my morality, if something bad is foreseen and can be prevented with effort proportional to a good result, then I do it. I certainly don't look on if a small child falls into a swimming pool, for instance, or is about to run onto the road ─ let alone the events that overtake adults. But if there's a God, and if that God is good, then [he] shouldn't just sit on [his] hands, any more than I should.

Or else [his] morality is seriously different to mine, much cruder, much more barbaric.

When there are divine miracles that exist till now in our everyday life (Qurann, Holy books, Etc).. logic says there is something much bigger, this debate will never be over, it shouldn't!

The number of authenticated miracles is zero, of course.

Does it ever occur to you that the world behaves exactly as if the only place manner in which God exists is as a concept / thing imagined in individual brains?

 

[stvdv]

God is perfect, Humans are not, They are not supposed to, and God created them NOT to be perfect, hence God has to judge each one of them, hence God ALWAYS judges.

Seems we gave both different opinions about this

So, I agree to disagree on this with you, and I leave it at that

 

[darkskies]

that after life is all fake and atheists were correct after all.. nature created the universe, planets, sun, human beings, animals, birds,

To clarify: atheism isn't a belief, rather a disbelief in a god or gods. Which means that atheists don't necessarily assert anything about how things came about, or the effectiveness of prayer, or existence of an afterlife.