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A Protestant only chit chat about anything and everything.

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angellous_evangellous

Guest
ChristineES said:
The "once saved always saved" or not was the biggest debate subject on another Christian Forum I post at. Both sides had good arguments and quotes to back up their beliefs. After debating them for a while, I decided it didn't really matter. I just learned to accept that others may have a different understanding of the scriptures than I do. :)
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A good solution is just to trust God.

However, if one wants to understand biblical interpretation and actually know what the best explanation of the Scriptures and Christian history is, that requires some thought. I have read almost all of the Christian material for the first three hundred years and not one of them believes this, and I have proved it without any doubt at all. It's really not that complicated of a thing to find out.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
JayHawes said:
Jas 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is JUSTIFIED, and not by FAITH only. (referring to works that proove one has Faith).
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Odd that only this verse requires explanation. :rolleyes:

Here is the smoking gun, ladies and gentlemen!
 
JayHawes

JayHawes

Active Member
Terrywoodenpic said:
What do you mean White Church?... I did not know there were any .... what do you have to believe to be a member?

By "white" Church I meant a Church where most or all of the memebrs were white. The same membership rules contitue it's membership i believe.
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JayHawes

JayHawes

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Odd that only this verse requires explanation. :rolleyes:
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Becasue James was discussing a topic different from that of Paul. If your read it. is about people hwo claimed to be Christian yet they treated the rich better than they treated the poor. They even seated the poor near the back of their Church and the rich in the front. They themselves did not show by their works that they were Christian, or that they even had faith. So James said:

Jas 2:18 -Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

James was teaching that Faith without corresponding works, is dead. And that Works fustify the man that has the faith. NOt just a man who says he has faith and shows no works. Justifiable works though, come after having faith. Faith, justifies a man, the resulting works, b/c of faith also may justify that he has faith.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
JayHawes said:
Becasue James was discussing a topic different from that of Paul. If your read it. is about people hwo claimed to be Christian yet they treated the rich better than they treated the poor. They even seated the poor near the back of their Church and the rich in the front. They themselves did not show by their works that they were Christian, or that they even had faith. So James said:

Jas 2:18 -Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

James was teaching that Faith without corresponding works, is dead. And that Works fustify the man that has the faith. NOt just a man who says he has faith and shows no works. Justifiable works though, come after having faith. Faith, justifies a man, the resulting works, b/c of faith also may justify that he has faith.
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So you're not reading it as:

Jas 2:18 -Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works [because faith without works is dead, making this a hypothetical statement illustrating its impossibility], and I will show thee my faith by my works [because only faith with works is alive].
 
JayHawes

JayHawes

Active Member
Here's an exerpt from my book on the Chapter covering Eternal Salvation:

".[Ephesians 4:30 reads] And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption". It tells us in truth that we are SEALED, but what does sealed mean? Seal means a distinctive mark that stands for the individual who owns it (being that on which the seal is on). So, the verse tells us that we are owned by the Holy Spirit of God."

We are owned by the Spirit of GOd, UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.
 
JayHawes

JayHawes

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
So you're not reading it as:

Jas 2:18 -Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works [because faith without works is dead], and I will show thee my faith by my works [because only faith with works is alive].
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I did read it, that's how i conclueded that Justifiable works come after faith. You must have faith before works. Faith, produces good works, both should be alive.

I never professed that a person can have faith, and be the complete opposite of a Christian and be justified. Instead I profess that if a person has true faith, that itself justifies him, because true faith results in good works.
 
JayHawes

JayHawes

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
A good solution is just to trust God.

However, if one wants to understand biblical interpretation and actually know what the best explanation of the Scriptures and Christian history is, that requires some thought. I have read almost all of the Christian material for the first three hundred years and not one of them believes this, and I have proved it without any doubt at all. It's really not that complicated of a thing to find out.
Click to expand...

Perphaps have you considered that "once saved always saved" was not their prioritey. Mainly becuase they were being persecuted left and right by the Roman empire, Jews, and local authorities. Christians back then, i'm sure didn't have to fumble about eternal salvation, they clealry understood what eternal meant. And were willing to die for Jesus beucase they knew they would go to heaven because he had died for their sins.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
JayHawes said:
I did read it, that's how i conclueded that Justifiable works come after faith. You must have faith before works. Faith, produces good works, both should be alive.

I never professed that a person can have faith, and be the complete opposite of a Christian and be justified. Instead I profess that if a person has true faith, that itself justifies him, because true faith results in good works.
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That was not my question.
 
Sonic247

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
Forget about no man shall pluck them out of my hand, what about the first part "they shall never perish", if I bought a car and the salesman said "it will never brake down" and it did, I would know he was a liar, Jesus is not like that. It's not based on anything we do, we have no right to stand before God, it's only his mercy and Christ's sacrifice that we can claim all our righteousness "is as filthy rags", if we do something good it is God working through us, the Holy Spirit that Jesus told us would be with us forever will not leave us.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
JayHawes said:
Perphaps have you considered that "once saved always saved" was not their prioritey. Mainly becuase they were being persecuted left and right by the Roman empire, Jews, and local authorities. Christians back then, i'm sure didn't have to fumble about eternal salvation, they clealry understood what eternal meant. And were willing to die for Jesus beucase they knew they would go to heaven because he had died for their sins.
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Perhaps I would think this if I didn't know that all of these Christians explicitly taught the opposite of "once saved always saved."
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Sonic247 said:
Forget about no man shall pluck them out of my hand, what about the first part "they shall never perish", if I bought a car and the salesman said "it will never brake down" and it did, I would know he was a liar, Jesus is not like that. It's not based on anything we do, we have no right to stand before God, it's only his mercy and Christ's sacrifice that we can claim all our righteousness "is as filthy rags", if we do something good it is God working through us, the Holy Spirit that Jesus told us would be with us forever will not leave us.
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"Believing" meant different things to the early Church.
 
Terrywoodenpic

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
JayHawes said:
Terrywoodenpic said:
What do you mean White Church?... I did not know there were any .... what do you have to believe to be a member?

By "white" Church I meant a Church where most or all of the memebrs were white. The same membership rules contitue it's membership i believe.
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By that standard we have plenty of white churches and a few black ones
No one would think of calling them that though.

I wonder why you do there?
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Sonic247

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
Welcome to America, it shouldn't be that way we should all be united in Christ, but that's the world we live in.
 
JayHawes

JayHawes

Active Member
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