A proposed solution for Young Earth Creationism

[ElishaElijah]

Well, you just answered my question about your naivety.



If I'm a soldier and God has just given me an eight-year-old girl and a fourteen-year-old girl, I should ponder what to do with them. What did God say to do with them? Nothing. He gave no instructions.
Where can I look to get divine guidance? Well, I could look to see what God commanded be done to their brothers - Kill them, regardless of age. I could look to see what God commanded be done to their mothers - Kill them, regardless of age. Hmm. OK. Do whatever I want as long as it's brutal, like god commanded about the brothers and mothers.

Do you really think the eight-year-old and fourteen-year-old girls want to have anything to do with the soldiers who just killed their father? Does it really matter if I marry them and then have forced sex with them?




I see you chose to ignore...


I see you chose to ignore...


I see you chose to ignore...


I would hope these questions made you uncomfortable. I doubt they did.

No, none of your comments make much sense.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Do you think you can just write two names and expect anyone to say: "Wow! Those are really good examples". If you're too tired to even try to defend your position, just say so.

Anyone familiar with Scripture should know these women and their stories. Should I have to explain how to tie your shoes too?
If you sincerely don’t know then will be happy to explain, but you come across as knowing all about the Bible.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not saying any of that

Then I have no clue what you were saying the posts I was replying to.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And if you couldn’t or they followed you?

Why couldn't I or why would they follow me?
You don't make any sense.

Also, since this is an extension of the "god argument", if god is on your side, why wouldn't moving be an option?
Are you saying those neighbors are more powerful then this god?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

My view is that God has all the information, He has been just and fair in my experience so I’m not going to side with your view on this but will land on God’s side of things.

Yep. Just like I said. Moral bankruptcy.

You successfully outsourced your moral compass to bronze age goat herders.

The women that were innocent were spared, do you know for sure about the rest?

Right, right, but the 4-year old boys and babies and all... those evil nasty b*ches were all killed like the guilty scum that they were.

Cattle also, off course.

I know what is recorded.

You believe what is recorded.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You successfully outsourced your moral compass to bronze age goat herders.

My moral compass is from God and before that it came from society which allows and condones covetousness, envy, get rich quick schemes, sexual immorality, pornography, drunkenness, godlessness, basically everyone can do what’s right in their own eyes and anything that’s legal including killing babies in the womb. I really enjoy my life now since I left that lifestyle.

 

[ecco]

No, none of your comments make much sense.

Nice try at a copout.

In any case, would you want your eight and fourteen-year-old daughters to be given to the soldiers who have been ordered to kill your six-year-old son and his mother?

I see such atrocities as war crimes punishable by death.
You worship and defend a god who committed such atrocities.

Which of us is moral and which of us is immoral?

I guess those questions did make you uncomfortable. So uncomfortable that you had to duck and dodge by saying they made no sense.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Nice try at a copout.







I guess those questions did make you uncomfortable. So uncomfortable that you had to duck and dodge by saying they made no sense.

Lol, you wouldn’t know much about anything and resort to guessing.

 

[ecco]

Anyone familiar with Scripture should know these women and their stories. Should I have to explain how to tie your shoes too?
If you sincerely don’t know then will be happy to explain, but you come across as knowing all about the Bible.

It doesn't matter what I do or do not know. Typing "Ruth" is only an example of your laziness. You've done this multiple times. I asked for specific prophecies. You responded with a list of verses. I picked the first one and clearly showed that it wasn't a prophecy at all.

If you can't explain and support your position don't blame me.

 

[ecco]

Lol, you wouldn’t know much about anything and resort to guessing.

Stating that you ducked and dodged is not a guess. It's a proven fact. Care to do it a third time for all to see?

In any case, would you want your eight and fourteen-year-old daughters to be given to the soldiers who have been ordered to kill your six-year-old son and his mother?

I see such atrocities as war crimes punishable by death.
You worship and defend a god who committed such atrocities.

Which of us is moral and which of us is immoral?

 

[ElishaElijah]

In any case, would you want your eight and fourteen-year-old daughters to be given to the soldiers who have been ordered to kill your six-year-old son and his mother?

I see such atrocities as war crimes punishable by death.
You worship and defend a god who committed such atrocities.

Which of us is moral and which of us is immoral?

For sure atrocities, Jesus Christ doesn’t commit atrocities and neither do I, so I don’t worship a God who commits atrocities or immoral acts. So which of us is moral or immoral will be up to God. I don’t know how you live.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Which of us is moral and which of us is immoral?

When someone starts comparing themselves to other people like this it seems like a self righteous kind of comment and question.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

My moral compass is from God and before that it came from society which allows and condones covetousness, envy, get rich quick schemes, sexual immorality, pornography, drunkenness, godlessness, basically everyone can do what’s right in their own eyes and anything that’s legal including killing babies in the womb. I really enjoy my life now since I left that lifestyle.

I don't outsource my moral compass to some perceived authority and believe that there is NO CONTEXT in which genocide and infanticide could even be considered "moral".

You did outsource your moral compass and here you are... defending genocide and infanticide.

So on which side of this fence do you want to be?
On the one that thinks there are contexts in which genocide and infanticide are not only moral but even "moral duties"? Or on the side that considers them to be among the most immoral acts you can engage in?


You claim that "without" this perceived authority, one can only act immorally.
But here we are, me without such perceived authority and you with it, but I am not the one who's defending genocide and infanticide.


Maybe you should think about that a bit.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I don't outsource my moral compass to some perceived authority and believe that there is NO CONTEXT in which genocide and infanticide could even be considered "moral".

You did outsource your moral compass and here you are... defending genocide and infanticide.

So on which side of this fence do you want to be?
On the one that thinks there are contexts in which genocide and infanticide are not only moral but even "moral duties"? Or on the side that considers them to be among the most immoral acts you can engage in?


You claim that "without" this perceived authority, one can only act immorally.
But here we are, me without such perceived authority and you with it, but I am not the one who's defending genocide and infanticide.


Maybe you should think about that a bit.

I’m not defending genocide or infanticide. What I’m saying is God is not immoral, He is Holy, Righteous and Just in all His ways and has called me to live holy as well. Any time a person comes into the presence of God they are exposed and shown their own sinful self as in Isaiah and others.
Now in this thread you have called God immoral because of this situation, some have called themselves moral because of their view of this situation.
I haven’t said either, other than trying to make sense of this situation with limited knowledge of it. No way have I said genocide or infanticide is ok. What I have said is what I know of God, He is Holy, Righteous and Just.
Now seen as is it seems that you and others consider yourselves moral that remains to be seen but what is that to me? What I do know is anytime I’ve had a haughty, self righteous view, God has always shown me otherwise and would like to hear your story when this happens to you and what He showed you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I don't outsource my moral compass to some perceived authority

Where do you get your morality? Who says what is moral or immoral, who determines that?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I’m not defending genocide or infanticide.

You have been doing just that for the last couple posts.

What I’m saying is God is not immoral, He is Holy, Righteous and Just

And how have you determined this?
It seems to me that in order to label someone "moral" or "immoral", one would have to take a look at that person's behavior, his actions and decisions.

When I look at god's behavior in the bible, it doesn't strike me as particularly moral. It instead strikes me as extremely deeply immoral, with a severe barbaric edge. On top of that, he's incredibly insecure, petty, jealous, narcistic,...

He's like the incarnation of the total sum of the worst characteristics a human can have.
Unfair, irrational, ill-tempered, anger management issues, narcist, psychopath, manipulative, masochistic, misogynistic, homophobic, intolerant, blood hungry, powerhungry, tiranical,...

That is my honest judgement of this character based on his behavior in the bible as well as the stuff that is generally attributed to him through apologetics. And I can defend and properly argue each one of them.

So you just "declaring" him "moral" and "just", does not make it so.
You would actually have to rationalize it.

Because you see, this is the ridiculous circle you end up with when you outsource your moral compass to an external authority.

You have decided the authority is always right.
You say the authority is moral. Why? Because the authority says so.

So whatever the authority does, is by (circular) definition moral.
So when the authority orders genocide and infanticide, then it must be moral.

And if it strikes you as immoral, then it must be because "you don't have all the facts".

Do you see the problem here?


I'll give you a clue.
Mohammed Atta, when he was flying a plane into the WTC building on 9/11, was pretty convinced he was doing his god's will. He was very sure that he was a "holy warrior", one of "the good guys", standing up to the big evil empire, like David against Goliath.

I haven’t said either, other than trying to make sense of this situation with limited knowledge of it. No way have I said genocide or infanticide is ok. What I have said is what I know of God, He is Holy, Righteous and Just.

Well, clearly god thinks it's okay since he engages in it himself as well as ordering his followers to do so....
Right?

Or was god being immoral there?

Now seen as is it seems that you and others consider yourselves moral that remains to be seen but what is that to me?

What I'm trying to make you understand that we both have moral standards which are far superior then those exhibited in the bible.

Clearly you struggle with the moral question of genocide / infanticide. You are sitting on the fence here, explicitly even, for the simple reason that concerning this subject, a moral conflict inside of you is playing out.

Every fiber of your body is screaming out to you that the indiscriminate killing of children, women, men, the elderly,... even babies and toddlers, can not EVER be morally justified.

You know this. Why won't you say it out loud?

What I do know is anytime I’ve had a haughty, self righteous view, God has always shown me otherwise and would like to hear your story when this happens to you and what He showed you.

No idea what you are talking about.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Where do you get your morality?

In an extreme nutshell.

From an understanding of the world around me. From the understanding that if we are to exist together in a shared society and co-operate towards a common goal of prospering and providing for our family, that we have to respect each other's boundaries. Meaning that the extent of my freedom ends where yours begin.
That we have responsibilities as individuals towards those around us and by extension society as a whole, and vice versa.

That and the acknowledgement that increasing well-being = good, increasing suffering = bad.

Who says what is moral or immoral, who determines that?

Every one of us.

Here's the thing.... when you judge something moral or immoral, there is reasoning that leads you to that conclusion.

So the "validity" of your conclusion (your judgement, in this case), would depend on the quality of the argument / reasoning provided.

For example.....
Say a person says that it is immoral to have "mixed race babies".
We ask that person "why?"
That person replies "a white person having sex with a black person? well that's just yukie!!"

That would be an example of a bad and invalid argument. At no point those this argument demonstrated that something immoral is happening.

Now, let's change the example to brother and sister having a baby is immoral.
Why?
Well, genetics: the lack of genetic variation between brother and sister causes problems in off spring, genetic deficiencies which causes suffering. There are actually valid biological facts here that tell us that suffering will increase.

Incest is not wrong because "someone declared it so".
Incest is wrong for actual real, demonstrable, reasons.

 

[ElishaElijah]

In an extreme nutshell.

From an understanding of the world around me. From the understanding that if we are to exist together in a shared society and co-operate towards a common goal of prospering and providing for our family, that we have to respect each other's boundaries. Meaning that the extent of my freedom ends where yours begin.
That we have responsibilities as individuals towards those around us and by extension society as a whole, and vice versa.

That and the acknowledgement that increasing well-being = good, increasing suffering = bad.




Every one of us.

Here's the thing.... when you judge something moral or immoral, there is reasoning that leads you to that conclusion.

So the "validity" of your conclusion (your judgement, in this case), would depend on the quality of the argument / reasoning provided.

For example.....
Say a person says that it is immoral to have "mixed race babies".
We ask that person "why?"
That person replies "a white person having sex with a black person? well that's just yukie!!"

That would be an example of a bad and invalid argument. At no point those this argument demonstrated that something immoral is happening.

Now, let's change the example to brother and sister having a baby is immoral.
Why?
Well, genetics: the lack of genetic variation between brother and sister causes problems in off spring, genetic deficiencies which causes suffering. There are actually valid biological facts here that tell us that suffering will increase.

Incest is not wrong because "someone declared it so".
Incest is wrong for actual real, demonstrable, reasons.

Abortion? Critical Race Theory? Lying and half truths in media, Pornography? Dual Justice? The stealing and destruction of businesses in the cities? Illegal immigration? Men in women’s spa areas naked in front of women and young girls? Why do these situations get a pass? Do you agree or disagree with these?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Abortion? Critical Race Theory? Lying and half truths in media, Pornography? Dual Justice? The stealing and destruction of businesses in the cities? Illegal immigration? Men in women’s spa areas naked in front of women and young girls? Why do these situations get a pass? Do you agree or disagree with these?

I'm not interested in a gish gallop.
You asked me where I get my morals from and I gave you a nutshell answer.

If you wish to learn more about it, you are free to open up a thread dedicated to it. You are even free and welcome to pm me if you wish to learn more about how I see it.

But to go in on your questions would require lots of posts and lots of my time and energy, which will not be in the best interest of the thread since it would be completely off topic.

If you aren't pleased with the nutshell answer I gave you, then I can only suggest you dedicate a new thread to that subject, or PM me if you wish to talk to me alone about that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I'm not interested in a gish gallop.
You asked me where I get my morals from and I gave you a nutshell answer.

If you wish to learn more about it, you are free to open up a thread dedicated to it. You are even free and welcome to pm me if you wish to learn more about how I see it.

But to go in on your questions would require lots of posts and lots of my time and energy, which will not be in the best interest of the thread since it would be completely off topic.

If you aren't pleased with the nutshell answer I gave you, then I can only suggest you dedicate a new thread to that subject, or PM me if you wish to talk to me alone about that.

What I find is a big disconnect between what people say is their moral compass and how they actually live in real life and apply that to their lives. A lot of justifications and rationalizing.
For example a person may say that infanticide is immoral yet when it comes down to getting a female pregnant and then providing for the child, abortion and killing that life is the choice made instead.