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Featured A Proof that God Exists

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ben Avraham, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    That maiden in Israel, according to the Tanach in Isaiah 7:14 was Israel of the Ten Tribes who was mentioned by Amos as, "The virgin Israel is fallen." (Amos 5:2) That's when the Assyrians conquered Israel and removed the people to an endless exile within the analogy of the Scapegoat so that Judah could remain as the only Kingdom left as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever on behalf of David. (I Kings 11:36) The child born of the virgin Israel was Judah whom Isaiah identified by name as being Judah aka Emmanuel if you read Isaiah 8:8. BTW, to understand that the child was Judah, you must read the sequence of Isaiah 7:14,15,22.

    Now, for Isaiah 9:6, that was a prophecy of Isaiah about the welcome of the Jews returning from Babylon by the Gentiles in the Galilee. So, all those wonderful titles were used by the Gentiles to welcome the Jews from Babylon. That was their homage paying of welcome to show subservience to the real owner of the whole Land of Israel. (Isaiah 9:1-6)
     
  2. Carlita

    Carlita The Buddha Shakyamuni

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    Because something invisible cant create something visible. Things invisible to -the naked eye- form, shape, etc but they dont create or make something pop out of thin air. It takes billion or so years to form planets, stars, et .

    Also, Einstein could have been christian. I cant question how he mixed oil with water but I guess Ill figure it out sometime. :/ but I can ask you. Can you validate christianity by science?

    Not "I see a plant grow so that must be god"

    What is the source that makes this plant grow invisible to us and outside of creation?

    The other way around, how does the science of a plant growing show god?

    What is a god? I know he is an entity and creator. I read he is love, justice, and all. But what makes this entity exist in real-time t.v. that I may analyze your claim with something concrete to go by?

    I remember in high school we had formal debate clubs. There were two podiums. The participants had time to study and bring evidence for the topic at hand.

    What you are saying is like presenting a bible, flipping to a chapter, and say "Y marks the spot".

    I tell you that you are wrong and point out the sciencebof history and how it was originally and now srill called "X marks the spot"

    No no no. You say. See here in Psalms chapter 24:3, Y mark the spot.

    Then I tell you (pretending) the letter Y didnt exist in the era when Psalms was written. It is also a fact No language is translated 100 percent accurate

    No. No. No. See here! John 4:5 confirms my statement

    But see here document 2 from another source way on the other side of the world confirms my point.

    No no no...and you keep using the same book.

    My question: Can you validate your belief by science?
    If god can be proven outside of your personal experience, by whst scientific logic and equation validates (not make theory or assume) god is validated by science.

    Remember. People in the bible thought the world was flst. Need something factual as so far we know today.
     
  3. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Yes this is exactly right.
    For those who are interested in virtual particles wikipedia has a good entry. "In physics, a virtual particle is a transient fluctuation that exhibits many of the characteristics of an ordinary particle, but that exists for a limited time." Virtual particle - Wikipedia
     
  4. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Well, the universe is simply a collection of different perfectly real standing waves with specific frequencies and wavelengths which we call particles. That's it. The rest of what you write is just imagination.
     
  5. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    asking for samples of something that is not claimed by science is dishonest.

    And there is absolutely nothing but your wishful thinking to support said opinion.

    Dont get me wrong.
    I am not saying you are wrong.
    I am merely saying you cannot prove you are right.


    How is that an example of science creating a rule then allowing exceptions for the rule?

    I am not trying to make the creator go away.
    I am merely waiting for the creator to reveal itself.
     
  6. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    No, you are mistaken. I said that matter does not have to move for time to exist, because matter is composed of atoms
    and the electrons in all atoms are moving around a nucleus of protons and neutrons.



    You are talking about concepts. The Universe is not composed of concepts but of matter, and matter carries time with it.


    Aha! You finally said something relevant. When the Universe was caused to exist, space-time came along in the constitution of the Universe. What scientific theory says is no different from what I have just said; only in words. Before the beginning, nothing could exist because space and time are accidents of matter. Evidence? Atoms. Atoms are composed of space and time. Right, when we say that the Universe had a beginning it means that time was there to begin; but not before the beginning.
     
  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    By union with God is meant that we should wholly merge our will with the Will of God not that be become an incarnation of God.
     
  8. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    You are already an incarnation of God, though you may deny it via of your religious doctrine.

    It is the self that exercises its will, and that is partly why you have not yet achieved union. True union is as a drop of water dissolved in the vast ocean.

    Trying to merge with God only keeps you separated as 'self and other'.

    The question is: from where does the initial desire originate to be with God? God is always subtly prompting us from within, but because the self asserts itself more aggressively, we think we are initiating the action to be with God.

    (Please understand that I am not using the word 'God' in the sense of an external creator-god, but of one that is of pure essence only, without the idea of an agent of creation.)
     
    #268 godnotgod, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  9. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    So if all particles in the Universe are none other than standing waves, then all particles are standing waves behaving as if they are particles, when in fact, they are actually standing waves. IOW, all of material reality is not actually comprised of solid particles, but of waves that only appear to be solid particles.
     
  10. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Again, you are in contradiction to your own argument. First you say that nothing could exist before the beginning, then you say that time was there to begin.

    Atoms are not composed of space and time, but of standing waves.

    There was no such 'before the beginnig' since Time was not yet existent. 'before' means Time must be present.

    'beginning' means Time must already be in place; otherwise there can be no beginning. You are creating an impossible Cheshire Cat scenario.

    There are no 'accidents'; everything is perfect just as it is. Only our perception of reality is faulty, and that includes the notion that there are 'accidents'.
     
  11. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    In post #259, you said:

    "Without motion aka matter in motion, there is no time."

    Before that, you had stated that without motion, time is still present. Now you say that without motion, there is no time.



    No. The Universe is composed of STANDING WAVES which only APPEAR to be 'matter':


    “Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”

    Albert Einstein

    *****

    Standing Waves

    When two or more complementary traveling waves of space interact, they form a standing wave. Standing waves are stationary or standing vibrations that travel in a cyclical path within a confined region.

    Complementary traveling waves vibrate at frequencies that are equal to or multiples of one another. As space quanta in a standing wave compress and rebound, each one’s period of compression or density, fills the other’s rarity, the period of rebound. Vibrating space quanta in a standing wave follow the path of least resistance. The result of this interaction is mass; a particle.

    All known elementary particles are standing waves of space.

    The energy forces of gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear interactions are also standing wave patterns.

    Mass

    [​IMG]In its fundamental state, matter, or mass, is a standing wave. Mass is vibrating space quanta locked in ongoing interaction.

    Each of the 12 elementary particles, six quarks and six leptons, comprises a standing wave of a specific frequency and wavelength. The individual motions of their component traveling waves result in each particle’s unique, vibrational signature.

    Elementary particles interact with complementary particles to form new systems, including protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms, simple and complex molecules, organisms, eco-systems, planetary systems, stars, galaxies, galactic clusters, and super-clusters.

    standing waves | Quantum Wave Theory
    *****

    I did not say that the Universe is composed of concepts; I said that Space-Time is a concept of the Big Bang Theory, originated by Einstein. But what you are doing is to superimpose the concept of Space-Time over the Universe to make it appear as if Space-Time is part of the Universe. The human mind does this all the time when it thinks that Time is a real thing, when it is only a measuring tool, mistaking the measuring tool for reality itself.
     
    #271 godnotgod, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  12. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    This is called the Wave-Particle Duality. Wave–particle duality - Wikipedia
    There are several good videos on this subject on youtube.
     
  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    You are referring to the soul which is a reality God has placed in us which is made of an immortal substance who's one primary function is to enable us to know God.

    Without a soul we could not know God. But the souls itself is not an incarnation of God, it's just an inner ear and inner sight to be able to perceive and hear the voice of God.
     
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  14. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    I haven't read much of Maimonides but your opening premise interested me as in the Baha'i Writings it states basically that creating is an ongoing attribute of God... that He is a creating God... and that the universe is without beginning or ending. I will give a few quotes:

    "... look into this endless universe: a universal power inevitably existeth, which encompasseth all, directing and regulating all the parts of this infinite creation; and were it not for this Director, this Co-ordinator, the universe would be flawed and deficient..."

    ~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 48

    "...the Essence of Unity (that is, the existence of God) is everlasting and eternal -- that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end -- it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end."

    ~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 180

    "The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness. The names and attributes of God require the existence of beings, and the Eternal Bounty does not cease. If it were to, it would be contrary to the perfections of God."

    ~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 281
     
  15. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Where does this 'soul' reside, and how does the physical body contain that which is non-physical?

    You are still dwelling in the realm of a 'subject-object' split, where 'soul' is distinct from both God and you; where there is 'self and other'; 'man and God'. This is not divine union, which is reflected in the Hindu saying: 'Tat tvam asi': 'Thou art That': 'You are none other than the divine nature itself'. Why you fail to know that; to realize divine union, is the question. Any clues?

    Herein lies the all important difference between the believer of orthodox teachings ( ie; the Bible), where the subject-object split is always retained, in which you are still distinct from That, and the mystic's experience, which is itself the direct living experience of divine union, and where you are none other than That.

    "You are not just the drop in the ocean, you are the Mighty Ocean itself"
    Rumi
     
    #275 godnotgod, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  16. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Yes, but the source of the wave-particle duality is the field, which is why science is now focusing on the field which creates all of the mass of particles. It is called 'Field Theory'.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje

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    Who told you that? I can assure you that it wasn't God. He is "the Creator" who formed the entire universe from his own tremendous energy. Who said he couldn't do that? [​IMG]

    I believe he was an agnostic.

    When the Bible touches on matters of science, it is very accurate.

    e.g. How did Moses know the order of creation? And that the earth was "formless and waste" before God prepared it for habitation? (Genesis 1) How did he know that vegetation preceded the formation of living creatures? Or that the seas once covered the entire earth before dry land appeared? How did he know that life began in the oceans and with the winged creatures? How did he know that man was created last? :shrug:

    Only the Creator could have given him that information.

    How did Job know that God 'hung the earth upon nothing'? (Job 26:7) No telescopes in those days.

    Or how precipitation worked? (Job 36:27-28) Evaporation was not discovered until the 1700's.

    Or how did Isaiah know that the earth was a "circle"? (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word can also mean a sphere.

    The germination of a seed is a small miracle that happens millions of times every day. Everything begins with a seed.....even us....but the process is still awe inspiring.
    The life is already in the seed, waiting for the right conditions to germinate. [​IMG]

    All life is from God. Nothing lives without his spirit making life possible. He has enabled all living things to transmit life, but he is the source. Who can doubt that?

    As above.

    The apostle Paul answers that question.

    Hebrews 1:20-21:
    "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable. 21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened."

    Here he describes unbelievers as "empty headed" and with "senseless hearts" that failed to be enlightened. :(

    Proven science or theoretical science? Theoretical science does its best to make God go away....true science validates everything God has made.

    The Origin of Life—Five Questions Worth Asking

    Was Life Created?

    The scripture quoted above (Hebrews 1:20-21) reveals that creation itself is testimony enough for the Creator's existence....if this is insufficient for anyone, then that is their problem, I'm afraid. What do you think Faith is? (Hebrews 11:1) If we could present the Creator for all to see, there would be no need of faith.

    If you need more than God is offering, then perhaps you are not what he is looking for. People seem to forget that God doesn't have to be acceptable to us.....it is we who have to be acceptable to him. [​IMG]
     
  18. Carlita

    Carlita The Buddha Shakyamuni

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    [​IMG] I have to steal this from you.
    This is your belief-blinders clouding you again. Nothing wrong with that. Can you see without it though?

    No one told me that. A lot of what I believe to me is just common sense like gravity or, I don't know, feeling cold when I open the window. I don't really question it. I can still walk straight and I'm able to close my window and cut the heat on when need be. God excluded.

    How in the world do you think the creator would tell me something? Literally?

    Oh I wish I knew more about religions. There are thousands of creation stories and the native american ones I read are right on the nose just as you say the bible is. The reason why we assume that these people are telling the truth is because they are on the same earth as us, human beings, and can think just as we do too. There is no separation between them and yourself. So how they see things and how you see things are the same; they can't validate anything outside both of you and Moses' worldview.

    Also, your god-blinders are on. I don't know how god would know man would come last. Honestly, it doesn't matter if he came in the middle. I don't agree we are unique and special people "last people to survive" or "first person to stand on the moon" and other ways Americans compare ourselves to others by hierarchy. It's all the Church. I honestly don't feel protestants have the "real" Christianity. Healthy beliefs, yes but if talking about Christianity-belief and relationship with Christ-the Bible and everything protestants depend on is compilation by the church.

    Let me ask, since the Church dictated what's inspired and what isn't, and knew what books to put in the Bible, and so forth, and you don't agree with participating in things pagan given christians have a pagan history, isn't that contradicting yourself, using the bible they put together and deemed inspired for your beliefs in god? I know, run on sentence.

    Isn't it a contradiction that a "pagan" Church who put the bible together, found what's inspired, and so forth is used by the very people who reject and belittle the Church every time they hear or read that name?

    If you like. I think it was he was inspired by the creator to write what he write based on his time period, culture, environment, and people he hung out with. All religions are like that. Christianity isn't an exception.

    God-blinders. ;) No, really. It is a fact that what you are saying is a belief not a fact. How do you (without the Bible) come up with the abrahamic god by looking up at the sky and being thankful for being alive? Why not the Pagan god, or the Hindu god, or the Lukumi god? The latter two are both creators as well.

    But more productively, even though I do believe we are being guided by spirits and family in spirit, I do not see a connection between the "breathe of life" and a person or being. That seems creepy to me. I'm thankful the best way I can but thankfulness in and of itself is a blessing. Without the bible, what brought you to this specific being and what is he outside of your (and Paul, John, and Moses) experiences?

    On that note, "his invisible qualities are clearly seen".... where? How do I attribute say a growing plant to the abrahamic god? His qualities have to be visible just as my I love you doesn't make sense if I don't give a hug (or so have you) to show it too. Not make reflections by writing letters and creating pictures but actual one on one, physical and personal connection.

    Without that, how do you define a god?

    If you can't define him, how can you validate who he is if you don't know what he is? (Literally what he is not that he is an entity. I believe in spirits that doesn't mean anything unless I make it personal).

    My confusion is, how in the world did you get the abrahamic god by looking at what you say is creation? That's like looking at the river, watching the ripples, and something pops in my head that Vishnu created the waters and not, I don't know, Allah. Makes me pause and scratch my head all the time. Seriously.

    I want to have a good talk to you about god without the bible and bible quoting. If we just used plain ol' English language, I wonder if we can learn more about god through our direct observations, discussion of experiences, and how we interpret and make conclusions that those experiences lead us to god. If we can do that, that would be awesome. It would put some meat to the verses you quote often.
     
  19. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    What are you talking about? Literally everything visible comes out of the invisible,as both Quantum Physics and mysticism tell us:

    Quantum Physics:

    "Complementary traveling waves vibrate at frequencies that are equal to or multiples of one another. As space quanta in a standing wave compress and rebound, each one’s period of compression or density, fills the other’s rarity, the period of rebound. Vibrating space quanta in a standing wave follow the path of least resistance. The result of this interaction is mass; a particle.


    All known elementary particles are standing waves of space.

    In its fundamental state, matter, or mass, is a standing wave. Mass is vibrating space quanta locked in ongoing interaction.


    Elementary particles interact with complementary particles to form new systems, including protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms, simple and complex molecules, organisms, eco-systems, planetary systems, stars, galaxies, galactic clusters, and super-clusters."

    standing waves | Quantum Wave Theory
    *****

    Mysticism:

    Taoism:

    The Tao is empty'
    When utilized, it is not filled up
    So deep! It seems to be the source of all things

    Tao te Ching, Ch 4

    "Everything comes out of nothing. The source of everything in existence must be the ultimate emptiness in the very beginning of time."

    The Tao of Daily Life

    It is this emptiness; this no-thing-ness, that is Consciousness, not existing in Time or Space, out of which the Big Bang occurred.
    *****
    Hinduism:
    "Brahman [The Invisible] is the world"
    *****

    Buddhism:

    'form is emptiness'
    emptiness is form'

    from The Heart Sutra
    *****

    ...and on and on and on....


     
  20. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    For those who wish to know more about religions I highly recommend going to
    Internet Sacred Text Archive Home
    and start reading. You'll be amazed.
     
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