• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A Proof that God Exists

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Can you answer what or who caused the beginning of the Universe? That's the best evidence to prove that the Primal Cause caused the Universe to begin. Now, if you were of the kind of atheists that deny a beginning for the Universe, I could no longer use that as an evidence for the existence of God. But I still can use Logic to prove that you are wrong.
Maybe you don't understand the nature of time. Time is just an illusion. Please watch this short video.

 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Yes, this information is 100% correct. The standing waves are the real particles. Virtual particles are just short-lived random vacuum fluctuations in the quantum field that sometimes just happen to have an influence on real particles.

Standing waves are waves which appear to be particles.

Virtual mass is created by vacuum fluctuations in the Quantum and Higgs Fields, according to this:

It’s confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

..which accounts for 100% of the mass of the atom.
 
Last edited:

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Two laws we cannot escape or dodge.....scientifically proven.

1. "All life comes from pre-existing life". Life is always the cause of more life. Life cannot spontaneously pop into into existence by itself.

First off, that's not remotely true, we know that life "spontaneously popped into existence by itself" at some point in time. But even so, you're just describing what breaks religion, you cannot have a "first cause" "pop life spontaneously into existence" and keep this "law" as true.

2. "Cause and effect". Whatever effect we see, has a cause. Nothing comes from nothing.

Which conveniently leaves out gods. You can't state a law and then make up an exception to that law.

Do you read what you post first?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
First off, that's not remotely true, we know that life "spontaneously popped into existence by itself" at some point in time. But even so, you're just describing what breaks religion, you cannot have a "first cause" "pop life spontaneously into existence" and keep this "law" as true.

Really? Can you tell me of any scientific experiment that produced life from nothing? Science knows that ALL life comes from pre-existing life. The only thing that prevents them from believing in creation is their pet theory....one that eliminates a "first cause" of life altogether.
Abiogeneticists haven't managed to produced life in a lab at all, have they? :rolleyes:

Which conveniently leaves out gods.

Who said anything about gods? We only need one Creator. Science just hasn't figured out a way to quantify him yet. It is easier to eliminate him rather than to try and figure out who or what he is.

You can't state a law and then make up an exception to that law.

Why not? Science does. :D

Do you read what you post first?
Yes I do...do you?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Can you answer what or who caused the beginning of the Universe?
Sure.
It was batman.
Interestingly enough, I have just as much evidence to show it was batman as there is it was God(s).

That's the best evidence to prove that the Primal Cause caused the Universe to begin.
Except you are assuming there was a primal cause in the first place.

Now, if you were of the kind of atheists that deny a beginning for the Universe
How can One deny something that has not been shown true?

I could no longer use that as an evidence for the existence of God.
It is just as much evidence that batman did it....

But I still can use Logic to prove that you are wrong.
wrong about what?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Nope. But, apparently, god believers do care.

I wonder why.
Maybe because it's our job to spread the word that a judgment is coming that will change the world and eliminate from existence all who reject the Creator and his rules. Perhaps there may be a change of heart on the part of some, as has been the case many times. People from all backgrounds have turned their lives around and made themselves acceptable to the Creator.....he won't force anyone, but just invites them. Some accept the invitation and are grateful for the prospect of everlasting life in a better world. It costs us nothing, but gives us something no amount of money can buy. :)
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Really? Can you tell me of any scientific experiment that produced life from nothing?
Who says life came from nothing?
I mean, other than you in your above question...

Science knows that ALL life comes from pre-existing life.
Source please.
And I mean a science source, not Watchtower, not the Bible, a science source that makes that claim.
And no, "common sense" is not a science claim.

The only thing that prevents them from believing in creation is their pet theory....one that eliminates a "first cause" of life altogether.
Abiogeneticists haven't managed to produced life in a lab at all, have they? :rolleyes:
Still waiting on theists to produce their gods...

Who said anything about gods? We only need one Creator. Science just hasn't figured out a way to quantify him yet. It is easier to eliminate him rather than to try and figure out who or what he is.
Not difficult to eliminate something that has nothing but wishful thinking to support it.

Why not? Science does.
Examples please.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But something caused the infinite being to create the world, so there was a cause to the First Cause. It's only logical. Were it not so, then you would have to admit that something comes from nothing.

Yes, there was something that caused the Creator to create....."love". It is his cardinal quality. This has nothing to do with the cause of the "First Cause" however. As an infinite being, he has always existed. I appreciate that this is hard for finite creatures to comprehend this.

Everything he does is motivated by love. It is the very reason why he doesn't force his intelligent creation to serve him. He allows them to choose or to reject him. As an All-Powerful being, he could snuff us out in a heartbeat, but love tempers all his other attributes......he shows us his qualities and allows us to judge him by his creation. I personally love what I see....you may not. :D
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Who says life came from nothing?
I mean, other than you in your above question...

When dealing with biology, life always has to be present in order for for life to be passed on. That is kind of obvious, isn't it?
What life do you know of that sprang into being spontaneously? Has science ever been able to prove that life can come from nothing? Examples please...:p

Source please.
And I mean a science source, not Watchtower, not the Bible, a science source that makes that claim.
And no, "common sense" is not a science claim.

From WIKI...
"William Harvey (1578-1657) was an early proponent of all life beginning from an egg, omne vivum ex ovo. Francesco Redi, an Italian physician, proved as early as 1668 that higher forms of life did not originate spontaneously by demonstrating that maggots come from eggs of flies.[9] but proponents of spontaneous generation claimed that this did not apply to microbes and continued to hold that these could arise spontaneously. Attempts to disprove the spontaneous generation of life from non-life continued in the early 19th century with observations and experiments by Franz Schulze and Theodor Schwann.[10] In 1745, John Needham added chicken broth to a flask and boiled it. He then let it cool and waited. Microbes grew, and he proposed it as an example of spontaneous generation. In 1768, Lazzaro Spallanzani repeated Needham's experiment but removed all the air from the flask. No growth occurred.[11] In 1854, Heinrich G. F. Schröder (1810–1885) and Theodor von Dusch, and in 1859, Schröder alone, repeated the Helmholtz filtration experiment[12] and showed that living particles can be removed from air by filtering it through cotton-wool.


In 1864, Louis Pasteur finally announced the results of his scientific experiments. In a series of experiments similar to those performed earlier by Needham and Spallanzani, Pasteur demonstrated that life does not arise in areas that have not been contaminated by existing life. Pasteur's empirical results were summarized in the phrase Omne vivum ex vivo, Latin for "all life [is] from life".[13][14]"

Biogenesis - Wikipedia


Do you think that scientists have proved Pasteur wrong? Examples of spontaneously generated life please? ;)

Still waiting on theists to produce their gods...

I can see the Creator smiling at the thought of it.......once he makes his presence apparent, will it convince you?
Too late, sorry.
126fs4147532.gif


Not difficult to eliminate something that has nothing but wishful thinking to support it.

If you say so. Those who think there is no one to account to for how they have lived their lives are doing quite a bit of wishful thinking of their own IMO.
144fs807820.gif


Examples please.

Science says that life can spontaneously generate under the right conditions......it has never been able to prove its claim.
no.gif


Science is in no better position than ID believers when it comes to actual proof for what they believe. We have two belief systems and one of them requires more faith than the other.....I know which one makes more sense to my logic, but then I am not trying to make the Creator go away. :shrug:
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I guess some people get off on that feeling of justified self-righteousness. Not for me, but I wish you luck in your judging.

It has nothing to do with justification, self righteousness or judging.....it has more to do with gratitude that the Creator found someone worthy to reveal his truth to. He doesn't do that for everyone. "Few" are actually on the "road to life". He is choosing citizens for his kingdom and has been doing so for millenniums. Some will be rulers with his chosen king, and others will be subjects of their rulership. The kingdom is coming, ready or not. How God finds us at the end of the day, is really up to us. If we don't want him in our lives, then he will not force himself or his rulership on anyone. If people don't want to be ruled by him, the solution is simple.....they just won't be there. They go back to where they were before their parents brought them into existence. Is that not fair?

In the end, everyone gets what they ask for.....I am not the judge of any of it.
no.gif
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Can you tell me of any scientific experiment that produced life from nothing?

This stricked me reading some of your comments to the others.

I agree with you, life can't come from nothing. It can't just spring into existence spontaneously.

Then, it begs the question if we are talking about reality (not science vs. religion but both one and the same)

If something can't pop from nothing, god (which is an invisible deity/spirit) cannot be the first-cause. If that something has to exist in real time such as a seed creating a flower with water and soil, wouldn't it stand that life would have the same physical ingredients to grow what we call life?

A spirit/deity/god is invisible by definition. It cannot be proven; and, it isn't science dictated. Each god-religion has their story (narrative) of how the earth began and who or what created it; and, for religion to be inline with science (since if something is a fact, science must support it somehow), it needs to be physical like a seed, atom, energy, and so forth. The first cause can't depend on a specific religion. It has to be universal because it would be a fact and science is the same regardless of where one is in the world. Religion is not like that.

If you say god/entity/spirit is the first-cause and then say something can't pop from nothing, to me that is a contradiction. We cannot prove scientifically that god/deity/entity is material like you and I to create life. So, it's "invisible"; it's, roughly saying, "nothing." Nothing can't create nothing. Something invisible can't create something visible and visa versa.

Now, I believe in spirits too. I also believe they interact and are a part of us and in us just as you believe the holy spirit interacts with you and is a part of you as god in christ. However, to say either of these as the first cause as in your case described in the bible contradicts your post that says "something can't come from nothing."

In the bible, something did come from nothing. It came from a spirit or force or however named that formed the universe and life. Different religions personify it. That is fine. Just know that it is odd to say the spirit or force or god which is invisible and by definition not physical can create something but on the other hand say reality on our turf nothing/something invisible can't create something invisible/nothing. Then, to add, say your religion is a fact when the sentence before this one doesn't support religion as a fact only a belief based on the culture, traditions, and practices of a given people and area not universal knowledge as a whole.

Kinda get it?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
A spirit/deity/god is invisible by definition. It cannot be proven; and, it isn't science dictated.
God is the originator of science, hence all scientific principles come from him. What principles affect matter, do not affect non-matter. God is an entity, but not a physical one, hence, no amount of science pertaining to matter can apply to him.

The first cause can't depend on a specific religion. It has to be universal because it would be a fact and science is the same regardless of where one is in the world. Religion is not like that.

If you know the Bible's story, you can see clearly where religion originated. From Genesis to Revelation is one story. It starts in one location and finishes in a global situation with God having his message declared to people of all nations and faiths....some will listen. (Matthew 24:14)

If you say god/entity/spirit is the first-cause and then say something can't pop from nothing, to me that is a contradiction. We cannot prove scientifically that god/deity/entity is material like you and I to create life. So, it's "invisible"; it's, roughly saying, "nothing." Nothing can't create nothing. Something invisible can't create something visible and visa versa.
God is a spirit, but he is certainly not "nothing". Einstein proved that
laie_14.gif

God has the power to create matter.
That is not the same as saying "nothing can't create nothing". Someone created everything! He is just not a material being. His power is not measurable by man.

Now, I believe in spirits too. I also believe they interact and are a part of us and in us just as you believe the holy spirit interacts with you and is a part of you as god in christ. However, to say either of these as the first cause as in your case described in the bible contradicts your post that says "something can't come from nothing."

Spirits inhabit the same realm as the Creator. If they were material beings, they would die in his presence, as God told Moses. ("No man may see me and yet live".) We humans cannot even begin to contemplate "what" this infinite being is....only THAT he is. (Romans 1:18-23)

In the bible, something did come from nothing. It came from a spirit or force or however named that formed the universe and life.
No....everything came from someone. I think you have that all wrong. Cause and effect says there must be a cause for every effect. Science cannot produce one.....we can. Its all in a book preserved down through time so that we can know about this spirit God by his creations and by his actions towards humans.

Just know that it is odd to say the spirit or force or god which is invisible and by definition not physical can create something but on the other hand say reality on our turf nothing/something invisible can't create something invisible/nothing. Then, to add, say your religion is a fact when the sentence before this one doesn't support religion as a fact only a belief based on the culture, traditions, and practices of a given people and area not universal knowledge as a whole.

I believe its all in the definition and what picture we have invented in our own heads.

Kinda get it?

I do, but not quite the way you paint it.
no.gif
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
May I ask, where you raised as a Christian? I honestly and genuinely don't think you can see any perspective outside your belief. It's like being in a room all your life and we are telling you there are other rooms but that one room is all you know. Nothing wrong with that; but, it does get a bit frustrating when talking objectively about things like religion.

God is the originator of science, hence all scientific principles come from him. What principles affect matter, do not affect non-matter. God is an entity, but not a physical one, hence, no amount of science pertaining to matter can apply to him.

Since he isn't physical, he can't be the cause unless he is some type of matter or some type of some thing or however defined to make it or him real. When you have a fictional character, say Mickey Mouse, I can tell you a lot about Mickey Mouse. If you didn't have background knowledge of who Mickey Mouse, then the name would be useless to you. However, if I panted him with actual face, white hands and feet, big black ears, and a cute smile, then you get a more concrete picture of who I am talking about whether he is real or not. In the Bible, it talks about god's characteristics not what god is. It talks about "he is love; he is justice; he is a creator; .... " but it doesn't say what he is. What is an entity? You don't believe in spirits, so how can one be an entity but not a spirit? Force sounds new age, so is there another concrete term you can use to define what god is not who he is and what he stands for?

Once you do that, then I can tell whether that first-cause is actually part of reality in order to shape universes and all planets into being. Right now, your god is a big blur in my head. It's hard to imagine a blur create something. What's behind the blur?

If you know the Bible's story, you can see clearly where religion originated. From Genesis to Revelation is one story. It starts in one location and finishes in a global situation with God having his message declared to people of all nations and faiths....some will listen. (Matthew 24:14)

This is why I mentioned what I said above. If this is all you know, then it's hard to dispute this cause you can't see any other objective way of looking at the world. Until you can actually take another person's view as valid and true, how in the world can you expect people to believe you when it's hard for you honestly to step into their shoes and accept the validity of their beliefs without disproving it with yours.

God is a spirit, but he is certainly not "nothing". Einstein proved that
laie_14.gif

God has the power to create matter.
That is not the same as saying "nothing can't create nothing". Someone created everything! He is just not a material being. His power is not measurable by man.

How does a spirit create something? I believe in spirits but the spirits I believe in are actual people and the actual environment. So when I'm interacting with my family and the sacred, the spirits and their physical connections are literally real. They are not just spirit. So, if I believed in a creator, my faith would be logical because only visible can create something else that's visible and still be spirit.

But god is not a person (and not mainstream Christianity; I agree with you there). So, what is a god?

Spirits inhabit the same realm as the Creator. If they were material beings, they would die in his presence, as God told Moses. ("No man may see me and yet live".) We humans cannot even begin to contemplate "what" this infinite being is....only THAT he is. (Romans 1:18-23)

"Realm"???? (Sounds new age)

Outside of that, this is what you believe. If the bible is backed up by science, they should validate each other. How can this be validated by science? How does science prove an entity or spirit exist?

No....everything came from someone. I think you have that all wrong. Cause and effect says there must be a cause for every effect. Science cannot produce one.....we can. Its all in a book preserved down through time so that we can know about this spirit God by his creations and by his actions towards humans.

Cause and affect doesn't mention god. It also doesn't say it has to be some one. It's just a cause who/what to create a reaction to a how.

If science is backed up by god, then there has to be something in science to support what you are saying specifically about god. Also, if what you say is a fact and not a belief, it has to be universal. Two and two is four all around the world. Religion is not the same.

If you don't understand the nature of that, I think it's genuinely you can't see pass the end of your nose. (pun but no pun at the same time)

I do, but not quite the way you paint it.
no.gif

I do my best. :D
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Carlita

images


I couldn't have said it better myself.
171.gif
If there is pagan stuff in Christianity, then it isn't Christian.
no.gif


You can paganize Christianity but you can't Christianize paganism. When you mix poison and water, its still poison.

If the Bible is true, then what need do I have to investigate other religions except out of curiosity as to what they believe....I have done this. I was not impressed by any of them and the ones that practice idolatry (which was many) were particularly repugnant to me.

Christendom so put me off Christianity that I almost gave up on God altogether.....but there was something in me that wanted to search for him. I thought I had exhausted all avenues, until there was a knock on my door. I had almost given up on God, but he hadn't given up on me. He introduced himself and I realized that I had never known him. He was nothing like what I had been taught....nothing.

Judging by what you have written above, it appears that you have a very unrealistic grasp of the God of the Bible. What makes you think that God has to be a material being to create matter? Einstein got it. I think he got a lot of things. :D

Albert%2BEinstein.%2BE%2Bmc2_08aca2_4132628.png
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Yes, there was something that caused the Creator to create....."love". It is his cardinal quality. This has nothing to do with the cause of the "First Cause" however. As an infinite being, he has always existed. I appreciate that this is hard for finite creatures to comprehend this.

Everything he does is motivated by love. It is the very reason why he doesn't force his intelligent creation to serve him. He allows them to choose or to reject him. As an All-Powerful being, he could snuff us out in a heartbeat, but love tempers all his other attributes......he shows us his qualities and allows us to judge him by his creation. I personally love what I see....you may not. :D

I disagree with you on two counts:

Love, as cause for the Creator to create the world is the cause of the causation. Now we get into the age-old problem of infinite regression, since love also must have had a cause.

I do not agree that there is a persona (ie a 'He' as creator -god) as you described behind the creation of the world. Having said that, I would say that there is a supreme consciousness present, without an agent of consciousness, that is manifesting the Universe. This Consciousness is Unborn, Uncaused, Unconditioned, and did not create The Universe, but IS The Universe itself, just as a gold chain is gold.

Where do you get the idea that God is a person?
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Sure. It was batman. Interestingly enough, I have just as much evidence to show it was batman as there is it was God(s). Except you are assuming there was a primal cause in the first place. How can One deny something that has not been shown true? It is just as much evidence that batman did it....wrong about what?

And surely, you are not serious! If you mean to defeat me with jokes, you will never succeed. You must arm yourself with what it takes to convince a Jew that the Primal Cause of the Universe does not exist. And you can if you persuade me with Logic what or who caused the Universe to exist. I am assuming nothing but applying Logic that if the Universe had a beginning and, it could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that something or someone that preceded it caused it to exist. Prove to me that my claim is not true. You can't! Listen my friend, poppycock will take you nowhere.
 
Top