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Featured A positive argument against abiogenesis

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by leroy, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    And my reply is that “simple” sometimes win the competition………. You already greed with this …


    Starwman, nobody is denying that evolution occurs, nor that change happens, nor that there is competition.

    My only claims are

    1 Sometimes simplicity is selected over complexity (which you agreed)

    2 this leads to the conclusion that simple life should be exiting today (which has been supported by me and ignored by you)
     
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No, I said that "sometimes" and stated under specific situations. Let's not rely on strawman arguments. That is simply admitting that you are wrong. And you continue to dodge the question that illustrates your loss. Running away is also the same as admitting a loss.

    LOL! Sorry, you do not get to claim strawman. Try again.
     
  3. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    yes,,,,,,,,,, so what is your point...................we both agree that sometiems "simple" is good enough to win the competition.


    if we both agree then can you help me find our point of disagreement?
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Try again.
     
  5. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    There is a third option, at least for life on earth. It could have come from space. Since @leroy hasn't stated in this thread which option he prefers, he could, with the same arguments, be supposing the panspermia hypothesis.
     
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  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    What sort of simple life do you think should exist but doesn't?
     
  7. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Self-replicating molecules, like those that formed in the primordial soup.

    My point is that if life started simple…………..and if sometimes evolution favors simplicity …….we would have simple life today.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    We have prokaryotic bacteria, we have archaea... both are nearly as simple as "life" can be.

    We also have viruses: relatively simple self-replicating things that aren't considered to meet the criteria to be "life."

    ... so it seems to me that we have what you're asking for, unless I'm not understanding what you're asking for.
     
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  9. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    There is a wide range of options.

    1 Maybe something killed all the simple life (like oxygen as you claim)

    2 Maybe Life started complex by a natural mechanism

    3 maybe life was designed complex

    4 maybe life came form space

    5 maybe our understanding of evolution is incomplete (maybe there is somethign other than natural selection that causes a trend towards complexity)

    This argument by itlself is far from being an argument for ID or any other option,
     
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  10. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, granted,

    The point is that something as complex as a modern prokaryote could have not formed in a primordial soup (nor in any other environment suggested by abiogenesis researchers)

    would you agree with this point?
     
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  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Are you talking about RNA-based life?
     
  12. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    I am talking about the simple life that supposedly existed billions of years ago…..(ether RNA based or something else)

    Scientists in general agree that something as complex as a modern like bacteria could have not formed in the soup………….so presumably (they would say) that something simpler formed and later evolved in to modern like bacteria.

    All I am saying is that if those simple life forms ever existed we would expect to have some organisms that are nearly as simple as them.
     
  13. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    We also have prions, which are even simpler and replicate without any distinct genetic material at all.
     
  14. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    For one thing they would be a food source for anything more sophisticated. For another, they would have fewer defences, both against being consumed and against disruption by the environment.
     
  15. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Yes probbaly in some environments they were eaten by more complex life, but there would have been other environments where they were completely isolated, environments where they coexisted with complex life fine, environments where they trumped complex life (simple is sometimes better)

    This is what we see today and what we observe as far back as we can see in the fossil record, sometimes complex life trumps simple life, sometimes it doesn’t. …. Why assuming that things where different billions of years ago?
     
  16. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Why do you assume "there would have been other environments where they were completely isolated"?
     
  17. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Why don't we have trilobites? Extinctions happen all the time.
     
  18. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Because supposedly simple life, populated and dominated the world for billions of years, they where all over the planet many living underground, inside rocks, or in distant ponds where complex life never saw them.
     
  19. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Why do you assume all that? Says who? What evidence of it do you have? The first widespread life we have fossil evidence of was already quite complex.
     
  20. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Granted we don’t have trilobites, but we do have “simple” arthropods today, we have modern animals that are as simple as animals from the Cambrian.

    That is my point while complex life forms evolved from simpler organisms, that doesn’t mean that everybody evolved in to more complex life forms, some organisms stayed “simple” because in some environments being simple is good.

    Just to be clear, my point is that not everybody evolves in to more complex life forms, some stay the same and some become simpler (sometimes becoming simpler is an advantage) ………….do you agree with this point?
     
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